WOTM 60 Final Spoiler

Deckhand

Procrastination at its finest
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WOTM 60 Final Spoiler

,

So how did your game after 1AD go?

Were any civs able to slow down your keshiks?
Did any pop metal?
Did you go for Conquest or are intercontinental invasions too much work and you settled for Domination?
Or did the Immortal AIs show you why Asian Land Wars are to be avoided?


Tell everyone and discuss in this thread, subject to...

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Gosh, this game was brutal! At the time of my first spoiler, I had been feeling quite confident, since the easy (for immortal) start with early keshiks made for good land-grabbing. But soon after 1AD, the fact that this is immortal (and Warlords) kicked in. Now I realize Deckhand gave us an easy introduction to what was still, in the end, always going to be an immortal level massacre!

Some time around 500AD-ish, I'd finished warring against Russia, Greece and China (the three nearest neighbours). I destroyed Alex, but kept Russia and China as vassals - mostly for the additional happiness to (hopefully) counter war weariness. I'd initially planned to keep good relations with all the other AIs for trade, but cultural pressure from Wang Kon persuaded me to then take out Korea too, which I attempted to do between 500 and 1000AD, leaving him with just his capital.

The first sign of trouble was that, despite a good science rate, and my easily being the biggest Civ, I lost the race to liberalism, and then the race to the economics great merchant - as far as I could tell by quite a way. Then my plan to keep trades went awry when Caesar became annoyed and closed borders - which obviously blocked trade routes to Frederick too. And with the other civ being Toku-never-open-border-Gawa, that was goodbye to all foreign trade.

Then around 1200ADish, Caesar demanded a military tech off me. I said 'no' and he immediately went into Enough-on-our-hands mode. This didn't bother me too much because I had cannon and cavalry, and he only had riflemen and catapults. So in anticipation of the inevitable, I traipsed most of my army from the outskirts of Seoul in the East to the Roman borders, leaving just enough behind to (hopefully) destroy Wang Kon completely once the 10 turns of peace with him had expired.

Unfortunately Wang Kon vassaled to my only friend, Frederik. Well, nothing to be done, the cultural pressure meant I had to take out his capital, so I lost my only friend. Goodbye all foreign trade for the rest of the game! And of course Caesar declared war, so now I was at war with everyone. Still, even that went OK, I killed Wang Kon and made peace with Frederick (too far away for much of a fight). I took down the vast Roman stacks by the device of letting all his rifleman stacks enter my land, then suiciding lots of cannon on them. Then once his stacks were gone, then I invaded his land! Took two Roman cities and razed two more. At that point I couldn't afford to take any more territory because I wanted to go to space and I was now on 58% land. So I took 1500 gold for peace, and settled into fast peaceful teching to build my spaceship.

I probably would have launched soon after 1800AD. Except I forgot this was immortal, assumed I was big enough for peace to rule, and I didn't bother looking at the power graphs. Well, until, I was an estimated 15 turns from victory and Caesar suddenly declared war on me again. Then I noticed the power graphs.

The war was an immediate disaster because I had massive war weariness left over from the previous Rome war - and that meant that suddenly my time to build spaceship parts had changed form around 4-8 turns to around 30-50 turns! I revolted to police state, which with jails in most cities reduced it to 'only' 4-6 unhappiness per city, but that lost all the production from towns. Just as well I had taken those vassals earlier!

Then there was the size of the Roman army... The turn that he declared war, Caesar launched no less than three land stacks on me simultaneously, as well as a 3-transport sea invasion fleet. And his stacks were artillery and SAM infantry - and of course in Warlords, artillery doesn't get collateral damage. I had just a few artillery, and could build tanks, but hadn't actually bothered building any because I assumed that I was so big that peace would rule...

I just about took out the northern stack, with huge cavalry/cannon losses, but there was nothing I could do about the other two - I had to abandon the two cities they were aimed at. I also suicided basically my entire navy in a desperate attempt to destroy whatever was in his destroyer-protected transports. Amazingly that just succeeded, though it was only thanks to luck: I won several battles with ~20-30% odds.

I switched off researching for my last spaceship parts so I could buy some tanks. And almost immediately lost the first few tanks because it turned out Rome also had gunships. So then I bought some SAM infantry, which at last stopped the Roman advance - though by now I was two cities down and just about every resource within 4 tiles of the (new) border had been pillaged and just about every city of mine was starving from war weariness.

The turnaround came when robotics came in - my last spaceship technology so I could now permanently switch off research and pay to start mass-upgrading my surviving units to mech infantry.

Thanks to the mech infantry, I recaptured my two lost cities. But the war was still killing my spaceship production and Caesar was still refusing to talk. And I was back to being so close to the domination limit that I didn't dare capture any more cities. So I ended up besieging several Roman cities, destroying all but the last unit in each one. It looked like it would remain like that until the end of the game, but I'd forgotten about my vassals. I didn't dare capture any cities but Peter had no such qualms, and all of a sudden my infantry found themselves besieging their Russian friends! And - eeeek! - my culture just expanded into the void! But - phew! My culture stopped just before domination. I now controlled 61.5% of the land (62% required - that was cutting it fine).

And actually it turned out Peter unwittingly did me a favour. With the loss of the city, Caesar immediately became talkative, and gave me about 2000 gold for peace. I ended up winning the space race 3 turns later. A rather limp 1842AD space win (though with quite a respectable 92K final score).

Or did the Immortal AIs show you why Asian Land Wars are to be avoided?

Yeah, that one! ;)
 
Woo-hoo. I don't care how easy the set-up, I will take an immortal xOTM win however it comes. I absolutely loved being able to roll with the Keshiks. I still haven't unlocked the secret to keeping the economy going during an early conquest campaign. The biggest thing that saved me was a couple of very timely GMerchants that I sent all the way to Seoul. Did suffer just a few turns of Strike, but keeping Wang or Mao from Dowing while warring in the West was a big challenge, too. Toku never really got the chance to get involved. Despite being in WHEOOHRN most of the game, I don't think he ever declared on anybody.
 
Retired in disgrace...

So, after 1 AD I took my Keshiks east and attacked WK. I burned one city that was up in the arctic and kept another one because it was a holy city (turned out not to have a shrine, though) and because it had copper in the BFC. It was only much later that I realized all the horse, iron, and copper was in a relatively small area around the starting position. Unfortunately, it was when Alex DoW'd me. He had horse one tile inside his borders, so plundering that wasn't hard. However, he had built a city on top of the iron SE of my capital. I managed to raze that city after upgrading to Knights, but I still wanted to take away the horse permanently. As soon as the war started, I bribed China to attack Greece. That helped in the beginning, but it ultimately backfired. China capitulated halfway through, and I didn't even realize it until I tried to move a unit onto the same tile as a Chinese unit.

It turned out to be a very stupid war. Granted, I didn't start it, but I fought to take away their iron when they had already researched gunpowder. :blush: It would've been useful to deny them the horse, but only a little. I fell too far behind in tech, and he got rifles in the city with the horse. I took peace and hoped to hang on. That's when the attack on WK and the burning of his city really came back to bite me. He attacked with a stack of grens and rifles. I did get most Knights upgraded to Cavs, but the numbers just weren't there. I lost the city I originally took from him, and then another one. I knew even if could survive this war, the best I could hope for was to hang on until one of the AI went to space.
 
So how did your game after 1AD go?

Surprisingly well for Immortal Warlords.

Were any civs able to slow down your keshiks?

Yep, the first longbow showed up around 300 AD, and that was the end of the Keschnick fun.

Did any pop metal?

I did not notice...

Did you go for Conquest or are intercontinental invasions too much work and you settled for Domination?

Nope... Space.

Or did the Immortal AIs show you why Asian Land Wars are to be avoided?

Yep....


So after 1AD I took a few more cities before the longbows appeared, and then set up to teching. I was first to liberalism, and with the free tech (PP maybe, but not sure), I was able to build a 3 or 4 tech lead, and used this to controle the world...

Wang and Frederik were both millitarily stronger than me, or anyone else. I spend the next decades bribbing them into wars with the weaker guys, keeping everyone out of my hair. I built a few cannons and grenadiers, and jump into the wars once the weaklings were broken, and took a few cities that way.

I ended up with some 25 cities, but the land was pretty nice, so this was enough to get to some 3500 beakers per turn (+20% prerequisite bonus) in GA. This is a bit low for a proper space finish, but at Immortal, I will take anything I can get... The end game was a bit sloppy, because emancipation unhappiness was starting to play a bit of havoc with my plans, but I probably did not give away more than one or two turns because of it.

End result is an OK, but certainly not special space date of shortly before 1700, for a score of some 110K. Given the level, I am nevertheless pleased with the result.
 
Boo Jastrow boo! lol ruinin' my Space attempt!

I spent way to much time on the war effort and little on research early on. Wars went smoothly for the most part, but I was rather one-track minded for much of the early game before really thinking about the end game. I was battling the Dom limit, which I could have easily won circa 500Ad or so. Took out Wang, Peter and Mao and vassaled Alex. Took some cities from Rome, including letting Alex take some, then realized I was like a fraction of a % point to Dom..ugh. I gifted some cities to Fred to keep under. (Not being able to gift to your vassal is a real pisser pre-BTS)

I finally turned my attention to space. Developing land and whatnot. Lot's of anarchy for civics which is a pain. My on-going theory that I suck at Space is still holding true. I think I make wrong decisions on on tech path late game since I'm not used to it.

Anyway, built Elevator with help of a GE and fairly quick Gorges - slow built. Used US to buy up some key late buildings like Factories and Labs, but not sure if it was worth it. Ox went into Sparta, but was built quite late for Space. (Did not move cap as I was going into Free Speech anyway and FP was not far away in Corinth)

To show how bad I am, I was sporting well over 5000 beakers in GA in the late game, but still can't beat Jastrow. 1780AD Space Win for me. Score is decent though and maybe a cow too (153K) But I need a Space win :cry:
 
5000 beakers is my usual target (tho I rarely hit it) for when I kick off my final (typically 16 turn) GA... But of course getting there as early as possible is equally key. This sets up a balance act at the start which I am still working hard on perfecting:

Late game, you research power is given by sheer empire size and maturity. You get your 5000 beakers from having your capital pumping out ~800, and you have another 40 cities working hammer tiles and pumping in of order 100 each. The total output is almost linear in adding cities, and the bigger the better. There is no conflict here, because the best way to get a big empire fast is exactly the same as the best way to win big/early domination...

However, to get there fast, you need to power through the middle game techs which allow your empire to blossum... I am thinking of Communism (for state property), Biology (power farms), democracy (representation) and Assembly line (Factories/powerplants). Those need to be researched in a different phase of the game, where your research is not powered by quantity, but by quality of the set-up. Early oxford and lots of cottages are good for this. This is what sets up the conflict. Obviously, building oxford and growing cottages is NOT the fastest was to conquest land, so finding the optimal balance is key...

As for tech path... My default beeline path for space games (obviously, there are always situational adjustments, but this is the template):

Worker thechs for nearby resources - CS (slinged when possible) - Education - Print press - Bio/Comunism (order depends; getting whatever biggest I can on the way with liberalism.) - Constitution (skip if pyramids) - physics - railroads - Assembly line - Computer (labs) - Industrialization (to find Alu) - Rocketry (Build appolo) - Robotics/(+satelite in WL) for space elevator + start working on docking - Fussion - Genetics - Ecology.

Usually all parts other than the engins and Docking can be built simultaneously in the final GA, so you just have to make sure that those two are being built early enough.

The end-game is hwever so fast that the space elevator can usually NOT be put up in time to help unless you have a GE to rush half of it. This game, I did not build the SE because of this. I needed the fussion GE for the 2nd golden age instead, since it cuts more time off than the space elevator could.

BTW, I used to love Gorges, but have since shied away from it... It takes so long to get up compared to just building coal plants everywhere, and since happy is usually limited more than health, lately I have just been taking the health penalty of a coal powered empire.
 
I fell asleep on this one. I was going for a space victory. I had Wang Kon and Freddy at friendly feeding me techs (by sharing War with Toku). I guess I misjudged and didn't realize that Toku didn't have much land. I was headed for being way over the dom limit. I had three of Caesar's border cities that were still in civil disorder. 1444BTP at 100% from 40 cities. Starting AssLine.

Domination
1370 AD; 250K
 
Late - by Lymond, and Shulec, and whosesoever - standards Dom (1605). But, as pointed out by others, IMM win is IMM win despite the early Keshik handicap - which did make the game unbelievably easy for a builder like me!

Tried to keep to history profile - plundering a lot - and found out vassals don't help with techs - at all, in my case, and that's the aim of vassaling them in the first place.

Long time friendly with Rome, and glad to have been, looking at Roman rifles at the time I was still closing in on Cav (and later - looking at cannons, too).

Used cavalry to conquer Germany, so we were the three of us sovereigns - Rome, Japan and the Khan - only.

Could have won couple of decades earlier but for the pop share - due to being too sloppy on long-range planning, I guess.

Thanks DH, a lot of fun and (almost) no angst!
 
Well, Deckhand once again proved to be a really nice guy by giving us another easy (even for me) immortal game :)
And what's most important, in this game I managed to reach and break 100k score! I'm awesome :king: (my biggest score till now was measly 36k)

Thanks to removed metals and horses, for a very long time AI only had archers, cats, LBs and trebs. And this is what made it possible for me to go for domination on immortal. Knowing that Alex would attack me sooner or later, I eliminated him first. With keshiks this was a breeze. Then I was planning to take out Mao because he had Pyramids, but that mf Putler Peter declared on me so I had to defend against his SOD of LBs :lol:. But instead of finishing Peter, I was stupid enough to declare on Mao because I really wanted those Pyramids. Tried to take his capital, but was a couple of keshiks short and failed :( (at that time all AI already had LBs, so I should have attacked Mao with maceman instead of keshiks, but at 0% :science: I was still in red and still researching code of laws iirc, +25% chicken defense didn't help either..)

Then I finished of Peter (still with keshiks) who at the very end vassaled to Caesar, made peace, took out Mao's rifles and grens (with knights and trebs) and finally reached very late domination at 1802 by taking out Caesar. It could have been much earlier date, but I had three major problems (not counting myself :lol:):
My neighbor Wang was just too strong for me to take on him;
The same neighbor did nothing to help with Peter (made peace without even reaching Peter's borders);
War weariness was killing me (16 :mad: in larger cities), but switching civics later took 2 turns of anarchy, so I didn't switch :hammer2:

Or did the Immortal AIs show you why Asian Land Wars are to be avoided?
I don't think they did. And I'm not sure why we see this "tip" on loading screens...
 
Or did the Immortal AIs show you why Asian Land Wars are to be avoided?
I don't think they did. And I'm not sure why we see this "tip" on loading screens...
It's a joke tip.
Spoiler :
Snacks are good in moderation.
It's an internet meme based on a Princess Bride quote by Vizzini.
Spoiler :
My grandchildren are going to have no idea what life was like before the internet.
You can find out all about this for yourself by "googling" it.
 
1580 AD space

233000 points

I liked the map setup, uber horse-archers vs protective AIs without metal! Good idea indeed!
 
Peter settled by the tundra copper and I spent a lot of time preventing him from improving the copper. :lol:

Researched towards Cavalry and slowly expanded my empire west.

1230 AD Domination, 283K
 
It was to be my best game on Immortal, but I've failed and don't have time to try one last escaped :cry:!

I took Peter and Wang Kon (left the last northern city). This way my empire became very extense (but elongated). Thinking now, it's more difficult to manage gold and defence. I thought I could play quiet till next units (it would be Knights) to reunite my army. My only concern was Mao, so I kept some Cats near his stack. And didn't bother with others. So Alex declared and soon after Mao took part of the invasion...

The invasion was very weak, with some Longbows and Cats, but I provided cities with just one Archer. They simply enjoyed it...

I was so glad because my game was special (logically by Deckhand's help), and forgot it was Warlords' Immortal. But it's OK, for few moments I was the best Empire :D

BTW, how does it work the numbers of the Ratio? Does it help to predict an attack?

Thanks Deckhand :goodjob:, even with your help it's still hard :sad:!
 

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BTW, how does it work the numbers of the Ratio? Does it help to predict an attack?
:confused: I don't understand this question. What Ratio numbers?

There are cultural defense percentages in your picture. And if you right click (but don't release) you see battle odds (I always do this before attacking).

How did you get the game summary for 1AD and 860AD. I thought that only came up at the end. Did you quit at 860 and then quit a 1AD save?
 
Maybe you are asking about combat strength ratio?

Those can give some indication of vulnerability but affect on attack is complicated.
 
:confused: I don't understand this question. What Ratio numbers?

How did you get the game summary for 1AD and 860AD. I thought that only came up at the end. Did you quit at 860 and then quit a 1AD save?

Yes, my fault. I didn't know the right name, and only after the game I remembered those numbers. I opened again and saw Warlords doesn't have it. My apologies, but the question is: the ratio between empires that appears when you put the mouse upon the name of an AI, with the :espionage: symbol in BTS. I read one time that you must this ratio on your favour to avoid an attack :confused:?

I retired at 940 AD. I had the idea of showing my empire, but in the game it was too large to print. Soon after the retired, appears the summary (the same of the Replay). So, I think this map was very cool to print, then I watch till 1 AD and print. After I continued till 860 AD and take another photo. After I exit and save the game. BTW, I watched the little movie till the final, and only after that I thought in those pictures. So, when the little movie ended, I played it again and did that.

Wow, this must be very confused. But you can see that those pictures have the game behind (or at the bottom), unlike when you search it on the Civ4Replays, when the bottom is fully blue...

I didn't find another way to explain it :lol:! What a mess :crazyeye:!
 
BTS has espionage :espionage: Espionage points are accumulated and spent against an opponent. The espionage ratio shows relative :espionage: points.

Here is one guide:
Complete Espionage Mission Cost Guide

You can ignore espionage when playing BTS. But skillful use of it can be quite powerful. Examples include starting revolts to remove city cultural defense and stealing technologies.
 
400 AD Domination.

If I only had attacked Freddy a couple of turns earlier, an early conquest (still AD though) would have been possible I would have got the whole continent. He got longbows just with four cities left, and you can guess what happened to keshiks after that.

He had two cities left, but I had to get peace and go with plan B, i.e. settler spam. Economy was a liiiiiittle bit of a problem at the end but nothing that a little pillaging and micromanagement wouldn't solve (though the game ended with troops on strike).

Anyway, fun game (and thanks for not giving the AI any copper or iron :) ).

edit: Oops. Now when I read the earlier posts, I guess conquest was out of the picture since Toku was in his own continent somewhere. I didn't even remember to check the number of AIs in the game... :D
 
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