Wow, I've been underestimating Trade Routes...

[Lenowill]

I just got done winning an Emperor game as Sitting Bull ... in which my coastal capital city was sitting on +50 commerce from trade routes alone by the game's end.

Yikes!

And considering that I was still running Bureau due to having little cottage-able land elsewhere, that was quite a hunk of base commerce.

1 default trade route + Currency + Corporation + Free Market + airport + Harbor + Customs House. Yowzers. Makes me want to give Carthage a try with their UB....

Then again, I tend to build my towns to high food/population because I run a lot of hybrid and SE setups.

But yeah, this has sort of reminded me that it's okay to build non-optimal coastal cities at the end of the game in order to get extra trade $. There's a LOT of extra trade $ to be had by then, even if the city's population isn't huge and a rushbought/chopped/lovingly-hammered-out Harbor and Customs House are the only non-essential buildings the city has for a while. Assuming Maintenance isn't going to be utterly killer (which it wasn't) it sounds like a good deal to me, especially for a non-FIN who also owns the Statue of Liberty.

It didn't hurt that my capital was also my Oxford city and had an academy.

 

[ryzax]

Yeah, but the extra trade routes only come late in the game. If you can finish the game before this happens, they are useless.

 

[ryzax]

glh man. glh.

Trade routes values grow slow, I'd rather build something else and besides to maximize glh, you need lots of coastal cities. I don't think that is good most of the time

 

[Fleme]

Trade routes values grow slow, I'd rather build something else and besides to maximize glh, you need lots of coastal cities. I don't think that is good most of the time

Well, that's an uneducated comment if I ever saw one. On certain maps, GLH will allow you to rex ad nauseum, meaning you can pretty much count on settling 15~ cities in the BC's without going bust (not that settling 15 cities pre-BC would absolutely require GLH - just the right terrain) and I feel stupid even having to post this.

Edit to summarize:

If you build the GLH, you can, and should, settle every offshore landmass you can to gain intercontinental trade routes - with this you don't even need AI's to trade with and with this even every 1 tile island without any resources or production will pay it's own keep and as such be beneficial.

 

[ryzax]

Well, that's an uneducated comment if I ever saw one. On certain maps, GLH will allow you to rex ad nauseum, meaning you can pretty much count on settling 15~ cities in the BC's without going bust (not that settling 15 cities pre-BC would absolutely require GLH - just the right terrain) and I feel stupid even having to post this.

it's very much terrain-dependent. if you can have coastal cities with ample amount of fish/clams/crabs, then why not. Otherwise, if you are stuck with mostly land, i don't think glh would work well. And land cities have more potential. But again, my main point is, if you can finish the game early, trade routes don't give much overall benefit. If you are planning for war, then trade routes won't give much - chances of foreign trade routes would be less.

 

[JTMacc99]

it's very much terrain-dependent. if you can have coastal cities with ample amount of fish/clams/crabs, then why not. Otherwise, if you are stuck with mostly land, i don't think glh would work well. And land cities have more potential. But again, my main point is, if you can finish the game early, trade routes don't give much overall benefit. If you are planning for war, then trade routes won't give much - chances of foreign trade routes would be less.

I agree with JFleme. To say that "I don't think that is good most of the time." is going to make most people think you haven't thought this through.

The vast majority of normal maps give you the opportunity to settle your 60%-100% of your first 6-8 cities on the coast. If you build the GLH, you will probably add 2-4 extra commerce per coastal city. In most cases, that's all that it takes to allow you to pay for that city, which means that you can then go ahead and settle another city without crashing the economy.

So, in most games, the GLH is THE #1 REX enabler. It is a fabulous wonder, and not just on water maps, where it's as overpowered as the Dutch UB.

 

[Silu]

Yep, I've begun to consider GLH the #1 gamebreaking wonder. When it's good, it's GOOD and that's maybe a third of random starts. Maybe in HoF with mapfinder it's not as good as its value is somewhat diminished if you only play 3 gem starts. Otherwise, it's the only way to expand to 10+ cities and not instantly crash your economy in the BCs. Plus it's the only wonder worth delaying an obsoleting tech, and that says a lot (Okay, SciMethod is worth delaying sometimes but not just because of 1 wonder).

 

[Lansky]

GLH or not a non inconsequential aspect of your commerce will be from trade routes. Getting access to foreign trade routes early, especially any possible intercontinental ones via WB exploration, can be a gigantic boon to overall empire commerce intake. Simply with currency and 6 cities at 1AD you will be generating 24 commerce via foreign trade. If half of those cities has libraries and an academy in the capital that will net at 100% research slider

12 beakers from 3 cities w/o multipliers
10 beakers from 2 cities with libraries
7 beakers from capital with library/academy

So 29 total beakers at 1AD from trade in this situation, which is hardly abnormal. Considering many people like to see 100 beakers at 1AD 30% of this can come simply from currency and foreign trade with 6 cities. Add in GLH, an AI on another landmass that connect via sailing, a small island you can settle yourself, and other such factors and now trade routes can easily be worth 50+ commerce very early in the game.

Saying trade routes are useless is indeed without any foresight into just how powerful they are.

 

[Lenowill]

For the record, I also had the GLH for the early game. I was isolated though, and had no offshore islands to settle for colonial trade, but the extra dabs of commerce in my (fairly numerous) coastal cities was well-welcomed throughout the game.

And yes, early foreign trade route access = huge. I've been starting to realize the importance of getting out an extra Work Boat to scout with, for that reason. Cheap little unit that can bring in big ol' profits if played right. True, you might learn you're totally in isolation, but at least you tried, and you're now more knowledgeable about what the perimeter of your continent looks like.

Overseas foreign trade early in the game is especially yummy. But any kind of foreign trade or overseas colonial trade is good to have.

 

[ryzax]

GLH or not a non inconsequential aspect of your commerce will be from trade routes. Getting access to foreign trade routes early, especially any possible intercontinental ones via WB exploration, can be a gigantic boon to overall empire commerce intake. Simply with currency and 6 cities at 1AD you will be generating 24 commerce via foreign trade. If half of those cities has libraries and an academy in the capital that will net at 100% research slider

12 beakers from 3 cities w/o multipliers
10 beakers from 2 cities with libraries
7 beakers from capital with library/academy

So 29 total beakers at 1AD from trade in this situation, which is hardly abnormal. Considering many people like to see 100 beakers at 1AD 30% of this can come simply from currency and foreign trade with 6 cities. Add in GLH, an AI on another landmass that connect via sailing, a small island you can settle yourself, and other such factors and now trade routes can easily be worth 50+ commerce very early in the game.

Saying trade routes are useless is indeed without any foresight into just how powerful they are.

1AD... I already have liberalism by then, no GLH, no colossus. If I have to build the GLH, I may have to sacrifice the Pyramids or the Parthenon and lose the extra 3 beakers per specialist, regardless of specialist, from rep and the faster scientist appearance. C'mon, you can't build every single wonder! Settling on coast limits the number of forests you can chop.

I know trade routes can be really nice, however, some good (and maybe better) things have to be traded-off if you want to concentrate on trade routes. Imagine if you could have a village or a caste system/chemistry workshop instead of the water tile that can't be improved.

I guess, it really has to depend on the map, for archipelgao, yes GLH is the only choice and maybe for continents. But for pangaea, terra, you are better off without it.

I think caste system is a more potent tool to survive after rexing. You get this from oracle

 

[Lansky]

I'm not arguing for the lighthouse or any single other world wonder. My point was simply that disregarding trade routes is silly. There is no trade off. Setting them up with some roads and a cheap scout is a huge gain. Why do I need to work a water tile (which yes is an awful idea) to open trade routes?

Lib by 1AD in every game and 'Mids/Parthenon in every game? You either play below your level consistently or color me doubtful.

 

[ryzax]

I'm not arguing for the lighthouse or any single other world wonder. My point was simply that disregarding trade routes is silly. There is no trade off. Setting them up with some roads and a cheap scout is a huge gain. Why do I need to work a water tile (which yes is an awful idea) to open trade routes?

Lib by 1AD in every game and 'Mids/Parthenon in every game? You either play below your level consistently or color me doubtful.

not really 1AD, within the last 400 years of the BC era. Yes, Mids and Parthenon in every game. What do you mean by below my level consistently?

edit:
in every huge, pangaea maps. well, this is my style. I guess this can explain why i don't prefer glh that much

 

[Fluxx]

not really 1AD, within the last 400 years of the BC era. Yes, Mids and Parthenon in every game. What do you mean by below my level consistently?

Since you are quite new to the forums, certain statements should be backed up by exhibition games, screenshots or games in series.

Since you have done neither, and some of the things you state are absolutely not easy at higher levels he refers to your difficulty level.

Getting Oracle/Parthenon/Pyramids before 400 BC, in every game, suggests 3 things.

a) You do not expand much beyond 1/2 cities before those dates.

b) You always play industrious leaders with HoF generated maps marble/stone.

c) You play on a noble/prince difficulty, while your actual skill level is Monarch+.

Ontopic

Trade routes are very very strong. Lately I recognize them way more in all my games, and when the possibility arises I always prioritise Economics/Corporations/Astronomy first depending on the map. These all together often give me 300 extra beakers and 100 gold. Something few techs can do.

Not only that, but seafood rich/luxury/tundra cities can be quite lucrative, though your instincts would think the contrary.

 

[ryzax]

Since you are quite new to the forums

False. I joined 2008, see my status. People with low post count is not always the same as being new to the forums. though I haven't played civ for the last couple of months (busy with school)

, certain statements should be backed up by exhibition games, screenshots or games in series.

I have done bc-era lib very recently only, though. So I can only have my most recent HoF games posted on the HoF tables (the monarch culture has it; for the monarch space colony monarch, I delayed lib so I can have bio instead of nationalism as free tech). There is a newly accepted entry coming up, it's an immortal culture at 1115AD, and yes, it also has a bc-era lib; you may have to wait for the next HoF update to see it, though.

Since you have done neither, and some of the things you state are absolutely not easy at higher levels he refers to your difficulty level.

yes, bc-era lib is not easy at higher difficulties and I don't think a lot of people can do it even at settler-noble

Getting Oracle/Parthenon/Pyramids before 400 BC, in every game, suggests 3 things.

a) You do not expand much beyond 1/2 cities before those dates.

false. I actually have at least 5-8 cities, by the time I am building 'mids and parthenon. the oracle is built earlier, so I think, at 3-4 cities

b) You always play industrious leaders with HoF generated maps marble/stone.

I never play Ind, I find that trait useless at higher difficulties, though quite good at lower ones. Yes, I use HoF generated maps, though having marble/stone in your first city is not that crucial, 2corn and 2 gold or any equivalent is the needed one. If I don't have marble/stone, I get A.I. cities which has it.

c) You play on a noble/prince difficulty, while your actual skill level is Monarch+.

If that "play' means playing at noble/prince at a habitual basis, then no. I occasionally play monarch-immortal. I try things at monarch, if it is successful, then I go to Immortal.

Ontopic

Not only that, but seafood rich/luxury/tundra cities can be quite lucrative, though your instincts would think the contrary.

if you backread in this thread, I said that if you have ample amount of seafood resources then glh is fine

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Tech isn't everything, sometimes paying for more cities ASAP is the winning ticket.

Of course, if you're rolling super commerce starts, turning barbs off, hand-picking sissy-foot opposition, and running some gambles for speed than GLH can easily lose its appeal.

There's nothing wrong with HoF games, but the are absolutely incomparable to a typical strategy + tips game. For some of the immortal U games for example I don't think even the very best players ever to grace the forums could hit 1 AD lib (for example, mostly isolated game initially with a crappy capitol for mao or tokugawa with rush bait for him nearby).

You can't take the value of a wonder for one play style and translate that into its value in standard play. For example, if you went mids, parth, and oracle in immortal student napoleon, you'd probably have a nice, significant tech lead right before you got mowed down permanently...while other players with arguably crappy tech went on to actually win.

GLH is situational like any other wonder, but for normal starts, it is OBSCENE on maps that favor it. Yes, better than pyramids, and far less costly if you don't have stone.

 

[Danzadragon]

I think when your city is getting 2000+ gold from trade it reeeally made me underestimate their power

Then again that city did have 100 trade routes

 

[ryzax]

Tech isn't everything, sometimes paying for more cities ASAP is the winning ticket.

Yes, agreed. For my military games, I turn off my research. For my culture and space, I usually tech-whore, for defense.

...And there are several ways to pay for the extra cities, not just the trade routes. And hey, (not to you TMIT) at 100% research, the trade routes don't pay the city maintenance

Of course, if you're rolling super commerce starts, turning barbs off, hand-picking sissy-foot opposition, and running some gambles for speed than GLH can easily lose its appeal.

Hey, the first two is for me, but not the third one. I want to play against Napoleon, Isabella, Peter, too, 'ya know

 

[Lansky]

As has been said, while no less a challenge HoF and "standard" are very different types of challenges. One you compete against other humans using the AI's as tools to win faster. The other you compete against the AI's directly and the goal is simply to win. The games are not comparable.

 

[Rittmeyer]

Hey, the first two is for me, but not the third one. I want to play against Napoleon, Isabella, Peter, too, 'ya know

now I undertand how you do well with four wokers per city. You know, that you described is not exactly being an Immortal player. Sorry.

 

[ryzax]

now I undertand how you do well with four wokers per city. You know, that you described is not exactly being an Immortal player. Sorry.

We roll nice starts not because it is the only way to win at high difficulties but rather we want to have a nice finish. It's competitive play, btw (BC-era cultural wins, 1million+ scores, etc). Even if you give an inexperienced player the best map starts and the best A.I. to play against with for Immortal and Deity, if he's BAD, he's BAD and chances are, he will fail.

On-topic, I find the GLH strat useful for the settler-spamming dom wins. If you are actually not worried about the safety and production capacity of your cities, then you can just build an endless horde of coastal cities and maximize the effect of GLH