Wu Zetian- more imperial grace needed?

Wu sounds like someone I'd meet off a street.
 
If everything were perfect she'd be speaking Middle Chinese with all the proper honorifics etc
 
MISER SVM said:
I'm not asking to do Karlgren-like authentic Tang-Dynasty Chinese pronunciation, just something more elegant and "historically accurate"
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So what historical evidence do you have, for the speech of an empress 1,300 years ago, against which you can measure accuracy?
 
朕 was only used from the Qing dynasty and later. 寡人 is probably a better honorific for her time.

I am by no means an expert.

However she speaks normal, very unimpressive (for her status level) mandarin. I think the designers were trying to go with the most approachable and "normal" register of all the languages, rather than the highest register.
 
It's been my impression that all (or at least most) of the leaders speak very casually. It's kind of a Civ 'thing' for the diplomacy to be silly. Like when Napoleon meets you, and suggests you split the world between your two empires. Or when Caesar used to offer you a salad.
 
MISER SVM said:
This is a purely aesthetical nag. I'm sure the voice actress did put some effort and time into this, but I am a bit unnerved by the historical character's lines. If possible, I'd have liked a more classical Chinese way of expressing herself (don't get me wrong, but CAesar's speaking Latin, right? Cannot judge about Megas Alexandros though- I don't know any Greek. And of course it's mainly for convenience that Ramesses speaks modern Egyptian Arab- so this request maybe a bit too much). I think it'S not that hard to combine that, as Chinese historical dramas and wuxia flicks do that a lot too. Of course she should still use "colloquial" eg common spoken Chinese, but just some bits of classical would add to the atmosphere. Just putting in some classical expression. I mean, come on 你好我是武则天 (Ni hao wo shi Wu Zetian) that's almost like Elizabeth saying "Hi there, I'm Lizzie..." No at least she should use more imperial language like using 朕 (first person pronoun restricted exclusively to the emperor) to refer to herself. I hope that's not misconstrued somehow. I'm not asking to do Karlgren-like authentic Tang-Dynasty Chinese pronunciation, just something more elegant and "historically accurate"-

So what are your thoughts on some of the other leaders?
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Well I don't speak Mandarin so I obviously cannot judge technicalities. But if all that "Hi there, I'm Lizzie" is true, that's exactly the kind of attention to historical details I expect from Firaxis/Sid. I.e. nonexistent. There are so many examples from the past it's not even funny anymore.

It's been my impression that all (or at least most) of the leaders speak very casually. It's kind of a Civ 'thing' for the diplomacy to be silly. Like when Napoleon meets you, and suggests you split the world between your two empires. Or when Caesar used to offer you a salad.
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Yeah well there's some difference between just getting important details wrong and an obvious parody/fun/easter egg/etc. When Caesar is offering you salad or when French quotes Monty Python (Civ3?) It's obviously made for laughs and nobody would complain about historical inaccuracy. However when they try to pass St. Basil's picture for the Moscow Kremlin, or when Wu Zetian talks as if she was some kind of peasant, or when Riga is Russian city (Civ1), or when Khan is a Mongolian equivalent of "Great General" (I guess, never played civ5 with mongols yet) - there's gotta be something wrong with their ability to read. Read at least Wikipedia.

And you cannot justify it by gameplay > realism or in any other way, really. These are just mistakes that must be patched. But more often than not they are not.
 
August pronounces the words exactly like we are teached at school now (yes I have Latin). I've got a Dutch accent though, and he might have an Italian accent. I think he should have an Italian accent. The Romans lived on the Italian peninsula after all. I can understand August perfectly.
On the other hand, I cannot understand Alexander at all, maybe the first line, but nothing else... He seems to be speeking ancient Greek though...

I've got some problems with Bismarck though... his voice has a weird accent and he speeks very slowly in his non-greeting lines. Like: 'Was.... (me having a cup of tea).... nun.' And when he has an offer for you. His expressions in those lines also seem really unnatural to me.


I don't know any Chinese, so I'm not able to comment on that.

Is Ramesess really speaking nowadays Egyptian? Fail!

The rest of the voice actors seem to have done a good job IMO. I'm curious at how the Dutch leader (if he'll ever come) will speak. Dutch has changed a lot since for example William van Oranje (he couldn't even speak proper contemporary Dutch, he was German)
 
FlyingDutchman7 said:
August pronounces the words exactly like we are teached at school now (yes I have Latin). I've got a Dutch accent though, and he might have an Italian accent. I think he should have an Italian accent. The Romans lived on the Italian peninsula after all. I can understand August perfectly.
On the other hand, I cannot understand Alexander at all, maybe the first line, but nothing else... He seems to be speeking ancient Greek though...

I've got some problems with Bismarck though... his voice has a weird accent and he speeks very slowly in his non-greeting lines. Like: 'Was.... (me having a cup of tea).... nun.' And when he has an offer for you. His expressions in those lines also seem really unnatural to me.


I don't know any Chinese, so I'm not able to comment on that.

Is Ramesess really speaking nowadays Egyptian? Fail!

The rest of the voice actors seem to have done a good job IMO. I'm curious at how the Dutch leader (if he'll ever come) will speak. Dutch has changed a lot since for example William van Oranje (he couldn't even speak proper contemporary Dutch, he was German)
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Bismarcks German is fine. And regarding your so called "nowadays Egyptian", well I guess it's your who "fail". Ever heard of Arabic?
 
FlyingDutchman7 said:
August pronounces the words exactly like we are teached at school now (yes I have Latin). I've got a Dutch accent though, and he might have an Italian accent. I think he should have an Italian accent. The Romans lived on the Italian peninsula after all. I can understand August perfectly.
On the other hand, I cannot understand Alexander at all, maybe the first line, but nothing else... He seems to be speeking ancient Greek though...
Click to expand...

I was convinced they'd butchered Alexander's accent until I looked it up. Attic Greek (spoken in Ancient Athens in the 4th Century) would have been pronounced the same way he speaks it. It's Koine Greek that modern Greek is based off of, which has some noticeable differences. For example, when he says "Theon" at the end, he pronounces it "Tay-on". That's apparently how it was supposed to be in Athens, although Koine to modern Greek pronounce it "Thay-on". It was also a language that changed in pitch rather than emphasis, which might explain his sing-songy style, although I think he comes off a bit forced and mechanical in spite of that.
 
stormerne said:
So what historical evidence do you have, for the speech of an empress 1,300 years ago, against which you can measure accuracy?
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Errm... you noted that I put historical accuracy in quotation marks right? I was talking about general flair here. Historical records in China are extensive, there are many different tools available to reconstruct the phonology of Chinese spoken at a certain epoch, including the Tang era, such as rhyme books, poems etc.Having all been extensively researched by a number of sinologists, including Karlgren, Baxter and Pulleyblank. I am no expert on this field at all, but I hope this helps. Of course this is only a minor, minor issue, and I don't want it to be more important than it really is.

Nevertheless, the main issue was historical, or yes, let's by shamelessly frank. pseudo-historical flair. Just spice up the vocabulary with more classical expressions (eg 寡人)。 You wouldn't want to expect the Empress of Zhou to bark 说 at you, which you can here in the streets of Beijing and every other major mandarin-speaking city.

I didn't call for Bismarck to sound EXACTLY like 19th century Prussian nobility eother, but as a German native speaker I am relatively content with his somewhat archaistic German (like using the 2nd person plural to talk to you). This is the same standard I'd have like to see for the Concubine turned Heavenly Dowager turned Emperor (sic!). A minor, minor nitpick: He says "vorwärts" sometimes, which is a bit odd in a diplomatic if any conversation. May be too literal a translation for something like "go on". But maybe it's used this way in the plays of Schiller and Goethe somewhere?

@Kushluk: Thanks a lot for pointing out! I have not much knowledge about this field, I should have read imperial histories. Any dictionaries you recommend?
「朕」一般只能用作皇帝的自稱。例如東漢末年，群雄爭霸，割據局面出現，曹操雖然也是魏的君主（魏王），但漢獻帝仍然在位（漢朝名存實亡），掌握朝廷大權的魏王曹操也只自稱「孤」或「本王」，沒有自稱「朕」，因為他沒有稱帝；而毫無實權的漢獻帝卻可自稱「朕」，因為漢獻帝是皇帝。
not too sure how trustworthy Chinese wiki is there.
Best of wishes.
 
Thanks for that MISER SVM. My own niggles would be the often less than accurate words of translation that accompany the voices - for many of the leaders, in fact - and the poor choice of actor for Darius whose intonation is too similar to a broad Scottish accent. But there are some nice touches too, like Napoleon's condescending "tu".

I am interested in body language too. Would you say that was fitting? Does it have sufficient "imperial grace"?
 
I absolutely agree. As a Chinese player it feels so ODD to hear Wu Zetian talk... Of course it's really just a pet peeve, i'm sure there are more inaccuracies for other civs... and I agree with the comments above that it's not just the words she uses but mainly the tone... she sounds like a random Chinese girl, completely lacking any sense of authority...
 
「朕」一般只能用作皇帝的自稱。例如東漢末年，群雄爭霸，割據局面出現，曹操雖然也是魏的君主（魏王），但 漢獻帝仍然在位（漢朝名存實亡），掌握朝廷大權的魏王曹操也只自稱「孤」或「本王」，沒有自稱「朕」，因為 他沒有稱帝；而毫無實權的漢獻帝卻可自稱「朕」，因為漢獻帝是皇帝。

Well if they used 「朕」back in Han Dynasty, then no doubt they used it in Tang (Zhou), which came after Han and was when Wu was Empress.
 
Silly nitpicking.. I'm still getting over "Gandhi declares war on you!" :lol:

Rat
 
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