WWII Europe: Small, Fast & Beautiful for IV - Discussion & Creation Diary

[NKVD]

yeah If you need help just tell me...as long as it is with USSR..lol no really I dont know much of the other battlefields in WWII...

 

[Nuh Uh]

 

[Nuh Uh]

 

[Nuh Uh]

Which is exactly why we need to come up with a simple yet effective way to depict that.

Well, I'm on your side there Paas.

Here is some analysis:

Civ is unique in many ways, but as far as its war venue (which I think we both agree needs serious help), there is an added dimension that units must occupy the same space in order to engage in combat. This makes sense to me when dealing with large areas and armies.

First scale has to be determined. But, working from the notion of a division and corps level game 10,000-20,000 and 50,000-100,000 manned infantry units, then we should know that the size of the tile should be 10-25 miles give or take, and turns should be 1-3 months each.

So for arguments sake, lets say the depiction of WW2, by Civ standards, is determined to run at 20 x 20 mi. tiles on a division level at one month turns. Then begin to make abstractions regarding tactical advantages upon that premise. If the scale is set at 20+ miles, then I would think that at least a few simulations with regard to tactical encirclement could be depicted with the combat modifiers in place. Ex. if the defending unit(s) ARE NOT mechanized or cavalry, and if the attacker has a 2 to 1 or greater advantage with only those units under the attacker's possession that ARE mechanized or cavalry, then there should be a substantial combat modifier to depict encirclement, and only if the defending unit(s) does not have comrade units flanking it - IOW, does not have defending units in the neighboring tiles on both sides of the defending unit(s) in question. Not being a moder par excellence, I don't know if its possible for the AI to determine if a given unit has neighbors. If it is, then we can easily build a simulation of more elaborate levels of tactics. Then you could depict say 'strategic encirclement', for the lack of a better name, virtue the entrance point of the attacking army. If a given unit is then attacked at 180 degree angles, there would be a significant combat modifier.

Supply would be a system that, unless in place, would cut the unit's combat and movement in half (rounded up). Verifying supply would be the ability to trace a path of tiles back to a city under friendly control that was uninterrupted by the presence of an enemy unit. Zones of control wouldn't exist for all units, but the need for an unit to stop and be fired upon by range weapons/armor when entering an opponent's neighbor tile would be appropriate; and zones of control for purposes of determining supply would need to exist for range weapons/armor alone such that one couldn't trace a supply path through a tile neighboring enemy range weapons/armor.

 

[DarthCycle]

Here it is, the first version of my regimental design document

Please read and provide feedback, especially Paasky since you've been expecting this for a while now.

I'm pretty happy with the first draft, looking forward to hear from all of you.

View attachment WWII Europe - SFB - Regiment design.doc

 

[Paasky]

But interesting is the fact, that u are not able to add more than 18 civs. Devs said that Civ4 will be very modable... So this proves they lied ?

No, it just means that the max for civs ingame is 18. You could have over 40 civs to choose from, but the max civs per map is 18. They must have something to sell the expansion packs with

I think that is gonna be a real problem for lots of the folks trying to bring Civ3 scenarios to Civ4. It took years and years for them to evolve, like yours, the TAM mod, and others. And modding in Civ4 is much more involved.

Just be patient and start off small and let folks help. Even the scenarios that shipped with the game barely scratch the surface of the things Civ4 can do, so there is a lot of learning to be done.

In any case, what you have so far looks great.

Yeah, there are many things that are so simple to do now, as long as they are included in the original files.

Well, I'm on your side there Paas.

Here is some analysis:

Civ is unique in many ways, but as far as its war venue (which I think we both agree needs serious help), there is an added dimension that units must occupy the same space in order to engage in combat. This makes sense to me when dealing with large areas and armies.

First scale has to be determined. But, working from the notion of a division and corps level game 10,000-20,000 and 50,000-100,000 manned infantry units, then we should know that the size of the tile should be 10-25 miles give or take, and turns should be 1-3 months each.

So for arguments sake, lets say the depiction of WW2, by Civ standards, is determined to run at 20 x 20 mi. tiles on a division level at one month turns. Then begin to make abstractions regarding tactical advantages upon that premise. If the scale is set at 20+ miles, then I would think that at least a few simulations with regard to tactical encirclement could be depicted with the combat modifiers in place. Ex. if the defending unit(s) ARE NOT mechanized or cavalry, and if the attacker has a 2 to 1 or greater advantage with only those units under the attacker's possession that ARE mechanized or cavalry, then there should be a substantial combat modifier to depict encirclement, and only if the defending unit(s) does not have comrade units flanking it - IOW, does not have defending units in the neighboring tiles on both sides of the defending unit(s) in question. Not being a moder par excellence, I don't know if its possible for the AI to determine if a given unit has neighbors. If it is, then we can easily build a simulation of more elaborate levels of tactics. Then you could depict say 'strategic encirclement', for the lack of a better name, virtue the entrance point of the attacking army. If a given unit is then attacked at 180 degree angles, there would be a significant combat modifier.

Supply would be a system that, unless in place, would cut the unit's combat and movement in half (rounded up). Verifying supply would be the ability to trace a path of tiles back to a city under friendly control that was uninterrupted by the presence of an enemy unit. Zones of control wouldn't exist for all units, but the need for an unit to stop and be fired upon by range weapons/armor when entering an opponent's neighbor tile would be appropriate; and zones of control for purposes of determining supply would need to exist for range weapons/armor alone such that one couldn't trace a supply path through a tile neighboring enemy range weapons/armor.

Have you played the new(ish) Sid's Pirates? That was the kind of combat modifiers I had in mind: simple, yet effective (hills give a defensive bonus agaisnt melee, forests give against gunpowder, flank attacks are devastating).

As for the supply lines: It could work in the same way as resource routes: as long as there's a road/sea connection into a city which has ammunition, or some other resource, you get to heal.

Here it is, the first version of my regimental design document

Please read and provide feedback, especially Paasky since you've been expecting this for a while now.

I'm pretty happy with the first draft, looking forward to hear from all of you.

Wow... That's a bit hard to understand (especially if you've waken 20mins earlier ) but I think I'm getting the hang of it. All with (*stuff*) are promotions, right? + the AT Inf's? And the ones without are techs?

Oh, what do SP & MOT mean? I got the rest of them. And what does the "---o" line mean (---> = requires I guess)?

Looks very good, but: that's only the German paths We need British, US, Soviet, French & Italian paths too





Just yesterday realised that the Firaxians have taken a major step back with arty/aircraft: Arty can only bombard city defenses down, not stacks To do anything against units, they have to do suicide attacks against units (which are now imposible as they can only defend)

And aircraft can only bombard city defenses (or stacks) but not city improvements!
No, no, no...

 

[wotan321]

I'm looking at DarthCycles flowchart and I am thinking.... what a great effort to put that together.... but what happened to Small Fast and Beautiful?

Whatever happened to Storm Over Europe, btw? That was one scenario that was truely impressive in size, detail, and workload on the people who did it. It was also unplayable. Even if you had the supercomputer required to run a turn on it.... it just was not fun because it was gigantic. I know the folks who worked on it created a monumental masterpiece, the biggest, the best.... the most historically, militarily accurate.... but I just never got it to be playable. Did SOE 5 for Civ3 ever come out?

Please keep this scenario SF&B. I have no right to criticize ANY of the scenarios others have made, or to even make suggestions on this one, but I sure don't want you taking on something so big and complex that it never gets done.

DarthCycles flowchart is impressive , shows a great knowledge of the era, and shows a lot of work to put it together. Thanks for doing that. But can it go in the game right now?

 

[Paasky]

I'm looking at DarthCycles flowchart and I am thinking.... what a great effort to put that together.... but what happened to Small Fast and Beautiful?

Whatever happened to Storm Over Europe, btw? That was one scenario that was truely impressive in size, detail, and workload on the people who did it. It was also unplayable. Even if you had the supercomputer required to run a turn on it.... it just was not fun because it was gigantic. I know the folks who worked on it created a monumental masterpiece, the biggest, the best.... the most historically, militarily accurate.... but I just never got it to be playable. Did SOE 5 for Civ3 ever come out?

SF&B could be thought of as a mod for SOE, or SOE lite, as I started my scenario from it. Although after I was through, the only thing that remained the same were civ colours

Please keep this scenario SF&B. I have no right to criticize ANY of the scenarios others have made, or to even make suggestions on this one, but I sure don't want you taking on something so big and complex that it never gets done.

Construcive criticism is the best info you can give for a modder. Although the "excellent job, you pwn!" are nice comments too

DarthCycles flowchart is impressive , shows a great knowledge of the era, and shows a lot of work to put it together. Thanks for doing that. But can it go in the game right now?

I don't think so. Not yet, until we can make promotions buildable in factories. Then it will be a major breakthrough in civ4 modding, and all will be well in the kingdom

But, here's the tech tree I made. Originally I intented to tie the upper part (tanks) into the lower part (research & industry) but decided to keep them separate, because if a player is stupid enought to go straight for the very heavy tanks (as I did in a normal game for rifles), they'll find themselves having medium tanks and feeling very good about themselves, until the enemy comes knocking with Very Heavy Tanks (as they have the indusrty/science to do that). Same thing happened with me: I was feeling very good as I had muskets, and declared war. The enemy already had infantry & aircraft...

EDIT: Got the whole techtree fitted into 1 image.
EDIT2: Cleaned it up

 

[DarthCycle]

A few notes:

1) Read the attached word document prior to looking at the chart. All the information you need in order to interpret the schema is there. If you don't read it, good luck! (You're just guessing on how to interpret this)

2) The purpose of this flowchart is to show how units and technology relate to each other and how one evolve into something else. How do you go from Pz II to Pz IV for example.

3) Once the flowchart is adjusted based on all your feedback, then I will start putting names like 'light tank', 'medium tank gun', 'early war doctrine', etc...

4) With this new naming convention, I can then modelize the other countries. Where do we plug medium tank, heavy tank and other units

5) Am I going over the top here? Is this too complex for what you want to achieve with this mod? Should I simplify?

6) Lastly, read the word document !!!

 

[Nuh Uh]

Have you played the new(ish) Sid's Pirates? That was the kind of combat modifiers I had in mind: simple, yet effective (hills give a defensive bonus agaisnt melee, forests give against gunpowder, flank attacks are devastating).

If you can add combat modifiers for flank attacks, then you can add combat modifiers for encirclement (rear attacks), right?

 

[Nuh Uh]

As for the supply lines: It could work in the same way as resource routes: as long as there's a road/sea connection into a city which has ammunition, or some other resource, you get to heal.

Short of knowing detail, it sounds like this might work.

 

[NKVD]

As for the supply lines: It could work in the same way as resource routes: as long as there's a road/sea connection into a city which has ammunition, or some other resource, you get to heal.

Would it be possible that to replace the heal with movement ? lets says tanks are not connected with a city with oil they cant move for a turn or two like it happened so often in WW2

 

[Nuh Uh]

Would it be possible that to replace the heal with movement ? lets says tanks are not connected with a city with oil they cant move for a turn or two like it happened so often in WW2

Well, ideally NK, it should be both inability to heal and movement restrictions - like half movement or no movement for armor or whatever...

 

[Paasky]

A few notes:

1) Read the attached word document prior to looking at the chart. All the information you need in order to interpret the schema is there. If you don't read it, good luck! (You're just guessing on how to interpret this)

2) The purpose of this flowchart is to show how units and technology relate to each other and how one evolve into something else. How do you go from Pz II to Pz IV for example.

3) Once the flowchart is adjusted based on all your feedback, then I will start putting names like 'light tank', 'medium tank gun', 'early war doctrine', etc...

4) With this new naming convention, I can then modelize the other countries. Where do we plug medium tank, heavy tank and other units

5) Am I going over the top here? Is this too complex for what you want to achieve with this mod? Should I simplify?

6) Lastly, read the word document !!!

1) I did, and it did help in reading the image.
2) And it is a great masterpiece in that
3) OK, for some reason the Germans had the most diversity in the armor department. Perhaps because they invented the whole style of war?
4) As you can see, the Germans will have more than 1 of several "Unit Classes".
5) If these are done in a simple manner, and most importantly, documented well in-game (Sid's Tip's, anyone?) they shouldn't be too hard to understand. But there shouldn't be more than one SP-Arty coming from a Pz2, for example. I don't know what chassis the Hummel or Grille were built on, but as the Wespe uses the Pz2 upgrade, there shouldn't be another option, as it would just make things more complicated.

Any comments/suggestions on the tech tree?

 

[Nuh Uh]

The Walt Disney World diversity of Germany's war engine was partially its downfall. The Ruskis on the other hand, they made one kind of superior weapon and stuck to it - the T-34c for example.

Paasky - are you saying that you can add modifiers for flank attacks by hybrid scripting/programming via 'Pirates'?

 

[Paasky]

No, I'm saying that they were in pirates

But maybe it's possible to add them, in a few years time...

 

[Nuh Uh]

No, I'm saying that they were in pirates

But maybe it's possible to add them, in a few years time...

Oh. I was under the impression that you were actually working on a playable version of WW2.

 

[Paasky]

Gee, thanks for the positive comment...

Anyway, a scenario (even if war-based) can be playable without flank & rear attacks & supply lines. ATM I think I've got the supply line problem solved with the Antihealth Promotion & Troop Supplies Improvement. Although it's not perfect, it's simple and very easy to do.

 

[Nuh Uh]

Gee, thanks for the positive comment...

Neither positive nor negative Paasky. I'm serious about the issue, and it is one only because whoever is at the game's creation wheel is asleep or in a coma. This game has everything you need to make a historical wargame based upon whatever era you are interested in OTHER than the 3 vitals - supply, tactics, and weather.

Anyway, a scenario (even if war-based) can be playable without flank & rear attacks & supply lines.

That depends upon what you call playable. If you can't simulate the battle environment, call it whatever you like, but I wouldn't call it playable nor would I ascribe it to history. Otherwise, its all pretense and no substance.

ATM I think I've got the supply line problem solved with the Antihealth Promotion & Troop Supplies Improvement. Although it's not perfect, it's simple and very easy to do.

How does it work?

 

[NKVD]

so are there weather ? simulating russian winters would be the coolest thing ever!