WWII Naval ships

[privatehudson]

IIRC plan Z was never due to be finished til 1945, which is when Hitler would have prefered to start the war. But I've always found it hard to imagine that peace would have reigned over Europe for that length of time. Even if they did let him have Poland.

Was it 1945? Thanks for the correction

 

[Esckey]

Alder my point is Germany is a resouce scarce nation, after you consider that alot of stuff was going to the army and airforce, so why build a such a big ship when a few smaller ones could do a just as good if not better job? Hitlers airforce plan was why build one plane with 4 engines when we can have 2 planes with 2 engines. Why not the same with the Navy? He kinda got it mixed up in my eyes.

 

[Adler17]

Lütjens sunk the Hood, the British pide and flagship. And also the biggest British ship ever built until now. Even if he returned to Germany he would be celebrated as hero sinking Hood and damaging POW despite he was not able to get into the Atlantic. Lütjens just made the wrong decision.
First Bismarck fired on the POW 3 times a minute. This is not a trainings value but a combat one! Also the RADAR on Bismarck was out of action in both battles. Only still secret British secret service reports can give an answer how good they were in combat, since Tirpitz never engaged an enemy ship.
Even if we assume if it was worse than the US one it would have been enough. The sinking of the Bismarck was just luck. If she was still maneuverable she would have been able to escape and to avoid torpedo attacks even with the damage she got in that last battle! No vital stations were out of action. She was still mobile but not manuverable. So she might have escaped, damaged but not sunk. Remember British 500 kg bombs were damaging Tirpitz superstructures but never vital stations. On the other hand 8 hits were enough for the POW to retreat. So even if DOY was full operational 16 hits would have been enough to put her out of action. And how many times Bismarck was hit? How many shells were really dangerous? Even if we say only 4 shells of the hundreds fired were dangerous a fight against Tirpitz would have been a fight against an enemy who could sustain tremendous damages without really crippling. This was not possible with the allied battleships. Speculating about other ships at this very fictive battle is only for fun. We don´t know how many other ships would have been there. Did the Tirpitz group engage the enemy? Where did they meet them? Do the British fight near to the convoy and with the cruiser and if how many ships stay with the convoy to protect it? What about Uboats and what about Victorious and German plane? I think we can´t refight battles never fought. I think we can only discuss of certain parts. So even if the Washington fires and fires and hits and hits how many hits were dangerous? Not many. Too few to survive until coming into the phase in which iot would have been dangerous for Tirpitz.
I think we should stop discussing on this fictive battle. You can´t convince me and I think I can´t convince you.
The Z- Plan was a fleet building program of a huge dimension. Additional to the ships built (Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) 6 further H- class battleships, 3 O class battlecruiser and 12 new Panzerschiffe should have been built. Not to mention 2 more carrier (additional to the two ships being built, Graf Zeppelin and B). Only with these forces Germany would have been able to cope with the RN in an open fight. But they never came into action. War broke out too early. Hitler attacked Poland because Germany was bancrupt. The new weapons were not very cheap. So he annexed Austria and the Chechoslovakia to get the money. The Poland. But this time he went too far. So he started the war.
The German naval officers were not very keen about the war. It came way too early. Raeder said, his few ships can only sink in a heroical fight as they did mostly indeed. The German navy became more effective than the IJN. But they had too few ships to gain the control over the enemy. Uboats were able to bring Britain near to a defeat but with the US...
Also I doubt that it was possible to build so many ships in such a short time.

Adler

 

[privatehudson]

Lütjens sunk the Hood, the British pide and flagship. And also the biggest British ship ever built until now. Even if he returned to Germany he would be celebrated as hero sinking Hood and damaging POW despite he was not able to get into the Atlantic. Lütjens just made the wrong decision.

The Hood was not the biggest British ship built to that point let alone till recently, KGV was heavier in tonnage, Nelson and Rodney were bigger in armour and guns. For that matter, Vanguard built at the end of the war was bigger tonnage wise and with similar arnament. Again, it depends on the way you look at it, Lutjens clearly felt that it would be unwise to go home without proving the ships ability to defy the RN and reach France.

First Bismarck fired on the POW 3 times a minute. This is not a trainings value but a combat one!

No account of the battle I've ever seen lists Bismarck as firing more than 104 rounds during the entire engagement, which lasted around 14 minutes. Also the better sites on the battle never list any ship firing 3 times a minute (except the cruiser Norfolk, but that hardly counts to be fair), and certainly not their entire arnament three times a minute. I'm not looking at what happened in one minute but entire engagements here, where things like accuracy and the ability to sustain a rate of fire matter, and yes the Bismarck hit POW 4 times, but hardly any more (in fact you could argue less) than Washington did at night at Guadalcanal.

Also the RADAR on Bismarck was out of action in both battles. Only still secret British secret service reports can give an answer how good they were in combat, since Tirpitz never engaged an enemy ship.

I wonder why the Radar was so ineffective/unreliable, POW had some problems with theirs and still performed beyond itself. Washington used to to great effect at Guadalcanal, as did DOY against Scharnhorst.

Even if we assume if it was worse than the US one it would have been enough. The sinking of the Bismarck was just luck. If she was still maneuverable she would have been able to escape and to avoid torpedo attacks even with the damage she got in that last battle! No vital stations were out of action. She was still mobile but not manuverable. So she might have escaped, damaged but not sunk.

Since when has all of your main guns, and probably the secondarys also been counted as "not vital"

On the other hand 8 hits were enough for the POW to retreat. So even if DOY was full operational 16 hits would have been enough to put her out of action.

Depends on what Tirpitz would be firing on, if I was her commander firing on a 14" gun ship whilst a 16" gun ship is slamming more shells into me than I'm hitting the DOY with wouldn't be my idea of a good tactic. Oh and btw, I contest that POW was dreadfully damaged in the fight. The four hits on her were damaging, but the biggest effect was to smash her compass platform. One other shell passed beneath the armoured belt but failed to explode. In the final analysis, POW's decision to withdraw was as much down to her mechanical and gunnery problems, and being outnumbered as it was to her damage. To quote the site on the Hood...

Within moments, Bismarck, her elated crew now focused on the battle once more, was scoring hits on the new battleship: The first 15" shell to find its mark went struck the lightly armoured compass platform, killing or mortally wounding all personnel except Captain Leach, the Chief Yeoman of signals, and the Navigating Officer. All three were understandably dazed. Although severe in its effects, this hit was mitigated by the fact that the shell passed completely through without detonating. It was not a dud as is often claimed, it had merely not encountered enough of a mass to trip its fuse. Control of the ship was passed to the upper conning tower immediately below the compass platform. Further hits followed in rapid succession: Four more 8" and two more 15". These included a 15" hit below the waterline beneath the armoured belt. This shell, which was potentially fatal to the ship, failed to explode and was not discovered until the ship docked at Rosyth after the operation had concluded.

Naturally they forced the POW to withdraw, but I would argue that it had as much to do with her incomplete nature and green crew as anything else.

And how many times Bismarck was hit? How many shells were really dangerous? Even if we say only 4 shells of the hundreds fired were dangerous a fight against Tirpitz would have been a fight against an enemy who could sustain tremendous damages without really crippling.

According to one website, over 600 (roughly 1/6 of the number fired) times, but by numerous types of shells. Again I'm at a loss to understand why you think having no ability to fire one's guns isn't crippling

I think we should stop discussing on this fictive battle. You can´t convince me and I think I can´t convince you.

I'd be happy to just convince you that knocking out an enemy's entire arnament could be considered crippling her

Also I doubt that it was possible to build so many ships in such a short time

Agreed, also it's very possible that the RN would have put into production more and newer ships to counter this such as the lion class for example. A good site on Plan Z is here

Now I'm off to prepare for my Hols, good debating with you anyway Adler, and as soon as I've sunk the Tirpitz... uhmm I mean tested those rules, I'll let you know

 

[Ace]

Lutjens was a fool! He had the POW under his guns and he let her escape. Basic navy strategy is that to win, you have to destroy or neutralize your opponent. If he had destroyed the POW too, and returned to Germany via Norway, he would have become Germany's number one hero, and the propaganda effect would have been many times that of Prien and U-47 sinking the Royal Oak in harbour.

A navy battle is usually decided by luck! Despite all the technology goodies, like radar, it is still a matter of luck to hit a moving target the size of a ship at 25-30,000 yards. It is that lucky hit that usually decides the action. True, a good ship has a better chance (odds) of winning, but when the shells start exploding, lady luck will decide who wins.

 

[privatehudson]

Lutjens was a fool! He had the POW under his guns and he let her escape. Basic navy strategy is that to win, you have to destroy or neutralize your opponent. If he had destroyed the POW too, and returned to Germany via Norway, he would have become Germany's number one hero, and the propaganda effect would have been many times that of Prien and U-47 sinking the Royal Oak in harbour.

He had his reasons. He believed the RN to have further heavy surface vessels in the area, as one site puts it:

Bismarck's commander, Captain Ernst Lindemann wanted to finish off the Prince of Wales. Lütjens realised that to pursue the Prince of Wales would be contrary to his standing orders to avoid any engagement with enemy naval units except those defending Allied convoys. He also had to consider that any pursuit could lead the German squadron closer to other British naval units that were undoubtedly on their way to intercept the Bismarck, risking the lives of his ships and crews on a venture that had been expressly forbidden.

 

[Adler17]

In the first phase of the battle Bismarck fired not at this speed. But when Hood was sunk she did at the POW.
RADAR was a new technology, and also Bismarck was on her first mission. So there might go something wrong. Nevertheless with her optical rangefinders she was able to hit the Hood with her third salvo. These rangefinders were knocked out in the last battle very early. Also I admit this and the guns are very important for a warship but I mentioned only the vital systems IN the HULL. Also Bismarck might have been escaped despite the damages and despite having no functional gun if she was maneuverable. So if Washington and DOY would have engaged Tirpitz they would have to hit her too many times to get through her armour. In the meantime Tirpitz would have been able to hit both ships. And you contested POW was heavilied damaged. I contest that she also withdrew because of her gun problems but even without that she could only suffer a few more hits. So 16- 20 hits would be enough to cripple her. And Washington? I think after 25 hits she would have been out of action. And how many times Bismarck was hit? And how many hits were indeed dangerous? And as well as the allies could knock out Tirpitz guns she was able to do the very same.
Happy Holidays PH. But play a game which is very realistical and which includes the real structure of the ships.
Ace, you´re totally right. A lucky hit and a ship is out of action (Hood, Bismarck). Lady Luck is not very trustable at all.

Adler

 

[Ace]

He had his reasons. He believed the RN to have further heavy surface vessels in the area, as one site puts it:

Bismarck's commander, Captain Ernst Lindemann wanted to finish off the Prince of Wales. Lütjens realised that to pursue the Prince of Wales would be contrary to his standing orders to avoid any engagement with enemy naval units except those defending Allied convoys. He also had to consider that any pursuit could lead the German squadron closer to other British naval units that were undoubtedly on their way to intercept the Bismarck, risking the lives of his ships and crews on a venture that had been expressly forbidden.

That is like maintaining radio silence to conceal your presence after you have been torpedoed by the enemy! Lindemann was right. The Bismarck was in contact with the POW, Lutjens knew the POW was badly hurt, and still he turned away. The correct action on his part would have been to finish off the POW, than return via Norway to Germany to collect his medals and repair the Bismark. Remember that the POW had hit her and punctured a forward fuel tank.

Lutjens knew that every ship the RN had available was after him, BUT, he also knew there were no capital ships between him and Norway...he has just sunk them! As for disobeying orders, does anyone really think that Hitler and Raeder would have critized him for sinking the "darling of the British navy, the Hood" and its newest battleship, POW, and returning to Germany with only minor damage. And by the time Bismarck would be repaired, the Tirpitz would be ready to join her on the next sortie. The pair of them against a reduced RN would have caused the British Navy a much more difficult problem than just the Bismarck on the loose.

We all know how shocking the loss of the Hood was to the British, and if they had lost the POW too, it would have been much worse. It might even have caused the Churchill government to fall!

 

[privatehudson]

Interesting to see you assume Lutjens possesed an ability to forcast the future and acess to intelligence he clearly didn't have. Lutjens didn't even know what he was facing when he engaged the Hood/POW, he believed them to be cruisers. If he didn't even know what he faced before the Hood/POW I find it unlikely that he could have been certain of the forces between him and persuing the POW. We can all with hindsight talk about what should have been done, but with the intelligence available to Lutjens, it's understandable that one would fear risking further engagement with heavy surface units for little or no benefit.

As for the POW, I still retain the opinion that she was not "badly damaged" but rather merely hardly in a state to engage in operations to begin with, therefore any mere damage to her would make her seem incapable anyway. As for causing Churchill to fall, that's the most amusing thing I've heard in quite some time

 

[JohnRM]

Concerning the Bismarck, we will never know just how effective that ship could have been given a longer life of service. However, that ship took one hell of a pounding and survived forever without the ability to maneuver. It should be no surprise that the Bismarck was unable to score hits.

 

[Constantine]

In some of the books on the Bismark v Hood/POW engagement was the the POW was having so much trouble with her electrical and mechinical systems from being rushed out of the yard was the numerous civilian techininans had to go out with her on her maiden voygage.

 

[Adler17]

Indeed at the very first moment both nearing ships was classified as cruiser but then indeed identified correctly (POW was thought to be KGV as the Germans didn´t think such a new ship would be sent into battle). Also disobeying orders was in the navy not so deadly as in other parts of the Wehrmacht (army in 1945 for example...): When the Tirpitz was attacked by the Albacores from Victorious, what I mantioned already above, Captain Topp ordered the ship in the other direction than Adm. Ciliax ordered before. He said, he had the command and not the Admiral. The torpedo missed the Tirpitz. And Captain Topp got in the first moment after the air strike the Iron Cross from Vice Admiral...
So sinking the pride of the RN and the newest ship would have been a success. And with two battleships of the Bismarck class and a few pocket battleships/ heavy cruiser in company Churchills headaches would be huge... Then he needed the WHOLE RN to intercept this enemy.

Adler

 

[privatehudson]

The entire RN were never available in one place at any one time. Any such sortie would have been met with what was available engaging them at various stages as happened to Bismarck. A number of decent battleships and a carrier or two with their escorts could easily have taken out such a force. That really wasn't the way the RN tended to work in WWII though. It would have taken most of the RN to take out most German breakthroughs, because that was the way the RN tended to operate.