XP progression planning with West Point

[Artichoker]

XP progression planning with West Point


This is about XP planning of new military units after building West Point.

In the West Point city, the typical XP count for new units is:

+3 Barracks
+4 West Point
+2 Pentagon or Theocracy
=9

For a non-West Point city, the typical XP count is:

+3 Barracks
+2 Pentagon or Theocracy
=5

One crucial decision to make is whether to go for both the Pentagon and Theocracy.

I'm exploring the idea that 9 XP is a "sweet spot" for military units produced in West Point.
The advantage of doing this is that those units are only 1 XP away from the next promotion,
and they can therefore gain needed healing after a crucial 1st battle.

Even though 9 XP and 5 XP units both start with two promotions, the difference is in how easily the
next promotion can be gained. With 5 XP units, the next promotion is relatively far away. I would
therefore want to make Artillery or Cannon units with CR 1 and 2, which could be sacrificed without
regret.

On the other hand, the West Point units with 9 XP would be Marines with Combat 1 & 2, or Tanks with Barrage 1 & 2. Of course, the West Point city's production would need to be supplemented by
other cities for these units, but the West Point city will typically have Heroic Epic and a Military
Academy, greatly boosting its production.

So, is it better to go for both Pentagon and Theocracy, or just one of them?

 

[Artichoker]

Regarding the production of Tanks, I would split them into two categories, on second thought:

1) Tanks which get Barrage 1 & 2. These tanks are more likely to die in their 1st battle, and therefore should be placed in the 5 XP category.

2) Tanks which get Combat 1 + another promotion (maybe Combat 2, or Barrage 1). With the Combat promotion, these Tanks are more likely to survive, and therefore should be placed in the 9 XP category.

 

[mystyfly]

Ever considered using CR tanks???

 

[A_Hamster]

So, is it better to go for both Pentagon and Theocracy, or just one of them?

If I'm warmongering, I'll go for both since I want my units as experienced as possible. This way my WP/HE city will produce EXP 11 units out of the box. This allows a Drill II + Barrage 1 tank, or a CR II + Barrage 1 tank to start. (If necessary, CR III tanks for really tough cities). Similarly, for tankbusting, you need Combat II before you can get the anti-Armor promotion.

 

[Polobo]

Why are you not considering settled generals in here as well? By the time you can build West Point you should have generated at least a few great generals.

What amount of XP should supporting units have (city/stack defenders, suicide siege, etc...) and how many cities and at what base XP would they generate. Don't forget to include stables since they do last a long time (really only gunships don't benefit from them). Airports and Drydocks are also later game considerations.

When is it worth setting up a level 5 military city and what would you mostly train there? Also, has any made any conclusions on whether a level 3 unit that takes more damage and then heals is a better choice (or when is it) than a level 4 unit that takes less damage but cannot heal itself afterwards. With a super-medic I would think the level 4 would make more sense but have no numbers to backup this assumption.

Just some food for thought.

 

[MrCynical]

Throwing a great general into the West Point city for an output of 11xp is the way to go. There's also the small caveat that if you build west point in a coastal city, you can build triple promoted ships without only one of theocracy, vassalage, pentagon or settled general, as drydocks give 4xp relative to the 3 of barracks. Stables allow similar for mounted units, though their lifespan is limited once West Point is built.

 

[Artichoker]

Why are you not considering settled generals in here as well? By the time you can build West Point you should have generated at least a few great generals.

What amount of XP should supporting units have (city/stack defenders, suicide siege, etc...) and how many cities and at what base XP would they generate. Don't forget to include stables since they do last a long time (really only gunships don't benefit from them). Airports and Drydocks are also later game considerations.

When is it worth setting up a level 5 military city and what would you mostly train there? Also, has any made any conclusions on whether a level 3 unit that takes more damage and then heals is a better choice (or when is it) than a level 4 unit that takes less damage but cannot heal itself afterwards. With a super-medic I would think the level 4 would make more sense but have no numbers to backup this assumption.

Just some food for thought.

I'm also considering settled generals, but didn't have time to write about it.

My thinking, however, is to use the GG on a 2nd or 3rd Military Academy.

Basically, there will be a core of 3 cities, consisting of:

City 1
West Point
Heroic Epic
Military Academy

City 2
Red Cross
Ironworks
Military Academy

City 3
Palace
Military Academy

So, GGs are spent in many places:

1) to get adequate XP for a 6th level unit create West Point
2) 3 GGs to create 3 military academies

 

[Artichoker]

If I'm warmongering, I'll go for both since I want my units as experienced as possible. This way my WP/HE city will produce EXP 11 units out of the box. This allows a Drill II + Barrage 1 tank, or a CR II + Barrage 1 tank to start. (If necessary, CR III tanks for really tough cities). Similarly, for tankbusting, you need Combat II before you can get the anti-Armor promotion.

Level 4 units are indeed powerful, but there's an opportunity cost for making 11 XP instead of 9 XP units. You either have to spend a GG to settle in the West Point city, or get both Pentagon and Theocracy.

For instance, I could do Free Religion and build the Pentagon, so that my happiness levels are moved up a notch. My WP units would only have 9 XP, but they could get that promotion after the 1st battle, along with the healing associated with the promotion (instead of getting the healing when the unit is already at full health).

 

[Hackapell]

City 2
Red Cross
Ironworks
Military Academy

You don't mix RC and IW for the simple reason that your IW city's sole purpose is to get you the wonders you need late game.

It would be easier to get one city churning out lvl 5 units off the bat(WP,Barracks, Pentagon, Theo, GG(for Char civs)+2 GG(for non-char civs)) and then let the rest of your high Production cities get Military academies. With HE, you don't really need another increase in troop production, because by then you will have enough cities to produce a large amount of troops anyways.

 

[Artichoker]

Throwing a great general into the West Point city for an output of 11xp is the way to go. There's also the small caveat that if you build west point in a coastal city, you can build triple promoted ships without only one of theocracy, vassalage, pentagon or settled general, as drydocks give 4xp relative to the 3 of barracks. Stables allow similar for mounted units, though their lifespan is limited once West Point is built.

But settling a General into the West Point city means 1 less Military Academy to build in a high-production city.

If my West Point military unit starts with 9 XP, I'd want to specialize its role so that it's used in a very high-percentage situation. The other cities' units can play a more sacrificial role in battle.

 

[Artichoker]

Ever considered using CR tanks???

I think I have used them before, but I was to lazy to mention it.

There's a place for many types of promotions for Tanks.

 

[Artichoker]

You don't mix RC and IW for the simple reason that your IW city's sole purpose is to get you the wonders you need late game.

It would be easier to get one city churning out lvl 5 units off the bat(WP,Barracks, Pentagon, Theo, GG(for Char civs)+2 GG(for non-char civs)) and then let the rest of your high Production cities get Military academies. With HE, you don't really need another increase in troop production, because by then you will have enough cities to produce a large amount of troops anyways.

About Military Academies in the HE or non-HE city...I disagree. The 1st Military Academy should be built in the West Point city, for the same reason that HE is built there.

It's a matter of leveraging the high quality of troops that you have with West Point, with the high quantity that you have with HE + a Military Academy.

 

[mystyfly]

I think I have used them before, but I was to lazy to mention it.

There's a place for many types of promotions for Tanks.

Hehe nice one, not mentioning the strongest version of tanks .
CR3 Units get another +10% against Gunpowder. So against Infantry (The AIs main defence unit in the Tank-era) A 10xp Tank has in fact CR 1-3, Blitz and C1. That is definitely great!

 

[Hackapell]

It's a matter of leveraging the high quality of troops that you have with West Point, with the high quantity that you have with HE + a Military Academy.

An okay argument, but this game is quality over quantity imo. You want 15 longbow, each with CG2? OK, but I get 5 CR3 Cannon and Rifleman, and I take your city in 2 turns.

Beating the AI in this regard is an exercise in futility, thus it is better to rush for a technological advantage and an advantage in EXP than in quantity. You have to be cost-efficient, and you should be able to have a large, well- promoted army if you're constantly warmongering, thus why do you need to bum-rush with a lot of units? Those units will eventually roll up matinence, especially when you actually use the massive army you've built.

also, you can respond to more than one post by using the multi option right next to the reply with quote button.

 

[Artichoker]

An okay argument, but this game is quality over quantity imo. You want 15 longbow, each with CG2? OK, but I get 5 CR3 Cannon and Rifleman, and I take your city in 2 turns.

Beating the AI in this regard is an exercise in futility, thus it is better to rush for a technological advantage and an advantage in EXP than in quantity. You have to be cost-efficient, and you should be able to have a large, well- promoted army if you're constantly warmongering, thus why do you need to bum-rush with a lot of units? Those units will eventually roll up matinence, especially when you actually use the massive army you've built.

also, you can respond to more than one post by using the multi option right next to the reply with quote button.

Now that you mention technology, we can agree that there are 3 factors to consider: unit production, technology, and experience. The key difference, however, is making the most of these 3 factors.

I agree that technology is the key factor of these 3, when it comes to determining the efficiency of units on a unit-per-unit basis. But I think bringing technology into the picture strengthens the argument for faster unit production, since a technological advantage will reduce the significance of experience.

Say, for instance, the defending AI units were CG 2 Longbowmen. Assuming equal numbers of attackers and defenders, would you really care whether your Cannons were CR 2 or CR 3? If you had 95% chances of success (I'm taking a number out of the hat here) because your units are technologically superior, would you really care whether you could improve that to, say, a 97% chance of success, by making that unit a bit more experienced?

On the other hand, fast troop production magnifies the advantage gained from technological superiority, by increasing the sphere of influence your military can affect as a whole. Before Factories come into play, the HE city has a +125% bonus to production, considering the bonus from HE and a Forge. If you add a Military Academy, that becomes a +175% bonus to production. If you consider the proportional improvement, it's a factor of (1+1.75)/(1+1.25) = 1.22. I'd say that's a pretty significant margin--especially considering that your West Point city's units have at least 4 XP more than other cities' units. If you consider the same for a non-West Point city, the proportional gain is (1+0.75)/(1+0.25) = 1.4, which is a higher margin, but it's applied to less experienced units.

Finally, we have to consider the amount of XP needed to gain the next level of experience.
I think everyone agrees that it's optimal to have the most basic military cities produce at least 5 XP units. The only question here is how experienced the West Point city's military units should be. The higher in level you go, the more XP it takes to gain a new level.

That is, at 0 XP a unit is 1st level, at 2 XP a unit is 2nd level, at 5 XP a unit is 3rd level, at 10 XP a unit is 4th level, at 17 XP a unit is 5th level, and at 26 XP a unit is 6th level. Going from 5 XP to 10 XP costs 5 XP, and West Point can account for 4 XP. If you want 5th level units, it takes an additional 7 XP.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

I'm an okay warmonger and have thought about this before, so I'm definitely subscribed to this.

Here's my 2

Just because you can promote the 11 XP unit to lvl 4 doesn't mean you must. The primary difference [to me] between 11 XP vs 9 XP is the option to promote. (I.e., if I have a 11/10 unit with 75% odds, I have the option of promoting to better odds; the 9/10 unit just has to "suck it up".)

I like keeping my options open.

I may be doing it 'wrong', but I also use 3 core cities for military production: 3, 5, & 9 base XP.

3 XP units are primarily defenders.

5 XP units are primarily "suicide" units like siege weapons.

9 XP units are the bulk of my assault force.

 

[phurph]

An okay argument, but this game is quality over quantity imo. You want 15 longbow, each with CG2? OK, but I get 5 CR3 Cannon and Rifleman, and I take your city in 2 turns.

Somebody with the Pentagon still defends with longbows? Also, 5 cannons and 5 rifles is more than twice the hammer investment of 15 longbows. So in this example it's quantity and quality for the offense!

 

[Artichoker]

I'm an okay warmonger and have thought about this before, so I'm definitely subscribed to this.

Here's my 2

Just because you can promote the 11 XP unit to lvl 4 doesn't mean you must. The primary difference [to me] between 11 XP vs 9 XP is the option to promote. (I.e., if I have a 11/10 unit with 75% odds, I have the option of promoting to better odds; the 9/10 unit just has to "suck it up".)

I like keeping my options open.

I may be doing it 'wrong', but I also use 3 core cities for military production: 3, 5, & 9 base XP.

3 XP units are primarily defenders.

5 XP units are primarily "suicide" units like siege weapons.

9 XP units are the bulk of my assault force.

Interesting to see that someone else on the forum has come up with a similar plan.

But, I'm curious...how are you providing the XP for each city? If you have either the Pentagon or Theocracy, then I can't see how any city with a Barracks would have less than 5 XP for its units.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Generally I go with 1 or 2 Military cities, with multiple other cities (Barracks only) providing the 'fodder'/'garrison' forces.

 

[UncleJJ]

I don't like the idea of building West Point in my city with the HE. What a terrible waste of military potential , spending 800 hammers (+100% for stone) that could be turned into units including the +100% for HE... that's a lot of cavalry or whatever. Normally I build the West Point in another good production city (with forge, maybe plus factory and power) and then add a Military Academy later as the units get more expensive. I view WP as the equivalent to 2 GG, it is effectively a double Military Instructor that takes a lot of hammers to build.

So normally I will build the HE early in the game in a moderate production city with a forge, barracks and stable and churn out 3 xp foot soldiers and 5 xp mounted. As soon as I get a GG for settling (first GG is usually a Medic 3 healer) the HE city gets it for 5 xp foot and seige and 7 xp mounted. I find that 7 xp is a good amount of xp; if you can get a combat with about 80% odds you should get the 3 xp (with the units that win) and have 10 or more xp.

My HE city is used to churn out an almost endless stream of moderately promoted units with the minimum of interruptions. The WP city is added later to suppliment the military production when my empire is bigger. I use GGs as MI to boost the xp of my HE city without losing production and then later as a MA to boost the production of my WP city. That gives me a lot of moderately promoted units which are better than a few highly promoted ones.