Commanders have a huge flaw

[Vincent_lacruz]

Personally i dont think it would make the militarist civs worse off. They would still get the free promotion/commendation regardless, on top of the above. It would probably be a buff for them tbh. You will want to build more commanders, and rush the "barracks" for production.

Hostile IPs are only a thing in the first era. The other 2 they just die in a few turns, as the AI has nothing better to do than march their armies over and kill them in the first 5-10 turns. They probably shouldnt start hostile in later eras tbh. At least not in a full campaign. I havent tried the later start settings. Maybe if you are lucky, youll have a commander near them when they spawn, and can block the AI off.

Farming xp from neighbors is doable, but if the first promotions are so easy to get, i dont see why giving a free point for new commanders after building a "barracks" in later eras is a negative against that.


On the topic of promotions, i would not be surprised if they move initiative deeper in the assault tree. Its just that good. Maybe they move it down to be like the logistics branch, and the +2 ranged and +2 melee are the first 2 options that go into initiative. They said in their stream that they are tracking this data, so i would assume they would change things up. The +1 movement is also very good, but i wouldnt consider it as strong as initative.

+1 movement is not impressive by itself, until you see the fine print of "no malus from terrain" (sorry, don't have the exact wording...). That means it won't lose all its movement points when entering rugged terrain or small rivers, and therefore you can unpack your units! Because that is a big weakness for comanders: if you have no movement point left, you can't discharge your units, and therefore initiative is useless...

Most of the time you will battle in open terrain, sure, but some positions in rugged terrain and/or flooding plains are a hassle without that movement upgrade...

As for the other upgrade categories, the defensive one can be prety good too, including offensively. Being able to build fortification in one turn allow you to fortify directly next to the opponent city (keeping your close combat unit fresh while your siege unit soften the target), and boosted healing is nice too.

 

[King of Prussia]

There is a barrack building that does that in era 3

ah yes, you are correct. I guess i somehow missed that. Explains why my air commanders had free promotions. I guess i never made a land commander in those cities by the point i made these. Ill have to consider this new info.

+1 movement is not impressive by itself, until you see the fine print of "no malus from terrain" (sorry, don't have the exact wording...). That means it won't lose all its movement points when entering rugged terrain or small rivers, and therefore you can unpack your units! Because that is a big weakness for comanders: if you have no movement point left, you can't discharge your units, and therefore initiative is useless...

Most of the time you will battle in open terrain, sure, but some positions in rugged terrain and/or flooding plains are a hassle without that movement upgrade...

As for the other upgrade categories, the defensive one can be prety good too, including offensively. Being able to build fortification in one turn allow you to fortify directly next to the opponent city (keeping your close combat unit fresh while your siege unit soften the target), and boosted healing is nice too.

Agreed, tho its not often that its an issue for me tbh. If i know the enemy is nearby i will predeploy. Once you are in combat, you arent moving a ton. Its certainly a good comfort ability, letting you move around with more freedom or redeploying from one part of your empire to another. The latter for me is more valuable. Combined with initiative it is amazing tho.

Defensive is pretty decent. I prefer the logisitics healing over defensives tho, unless i am going all in on the attack, and not just letting my ranged do the damage.

 

[UWHabs]

+1 movement is not impressive by itself, until you see the fine print of "no malus from terrain" (sorry, don't have the exact wording...). That means it won't lose all its movement points when entering rugged terrain or small rivers, and therefore you can unpack your units! Because that is a big weakness for comanders: if you have no movement point left, you can't discharge your units, and therefore initiative is useless...

Most of the time you will battle in open terrain, sure, but some positions in rugged terrain and/or flooding plains are a hassle without that movement upgrade...

As for the other upgrade categories, the defensive one can be prety good too, including offensively. Being able to build fortification in one turn allow you to fortify directly next to the opponent city (keeping your close combat unit fresh while your siege unit soften the target), and boosted healing is nice too.

The problem with +1 movement while packed is that if you unpack them with 1 movement point left, you immediately lose your remaining point. If I have that promotion I need to unpack them manually carefully leaving one guy behind. And then yeah, you get the awkward part where if you do use the focus fire or other ability, that uses up all remaining points and any units in there cannot unpack anymore.

 

[Vincent_lacruz]

The REAL flaw of the commander is that you can't manually unload a packed unit ON the commander's tile... Only in one of the six neighbour tiles... And that leave you in a position when you can't drop a unit to protect your commander...

AI tends not to use that weakness aginst you, but I doubt a player won't happily snipe your isolated commander when proposed such a delicacy...

 

[Cymsdale]

The REAL flaw of the commander is that you can't manually unload a packed unit ON the commander's tile... Only in one of the six neighbour tiles... And that leave you in a position when you can't drop a unit to protect your commander...

AI tends not to use that weakness aginst you, but I doubt a player won't happily snipe your isolated commander when proposed such a delicacy...

I'm convinced this is a UI bug because units will unpack onto the commander tile if you unpack them as a group.

 

[johnny_rico]

(My post is the result of reading page 1 of this thread. only after i posted did i realize the conversation had evolved to pages 2 and 3)

My first two promotions are always initiative and mobility as they are ubiquitously useful. Then i move to the logistics tree for the +1 gold and +2 units. Combo with the policy of -1 maintenance for units saves a ton of gold (armies almost for free).

I've been trying to make 3 commanders in antiquity and a 4th in exploration. If i can get two of them promoted to level 4, that's 20 units to pack into commanders at the start of modern.

I stay away from the bastion and leadership trees.

If barracks/military academies allowed for farming of commander xp's, i might be inclined to build them

 

[Tanel]

The REAL flaw of the commander is that you can't manually unload a packed unit ON the commander's tile... Only in one of the six neighbour tiles... And that leave you in a position when you can't drop a unit to protect your commander...

AI tends not to use that weakness aginst you, but I doubt a player won't happily snipe your isolated commander when proposed such a delicacy...

Yeah I hope they fix that. When I know I'm about to meet the enemy soon I usually deploy one troop ahead of where I'm planning to move the commander. When you have the Initiative promotion you can also deploy to a neighbouring tile and then move the unit there.

 

[Psychotronics]

I have no issues getting ranks on multiple commanders myself (I'm usually fighting on more than 3 tiles width, after all), so I don't see the issue there. What is an issue is that I tend to always pick the same few promotions, but that's mostly because Initiatve is too valuable not to pick, and then it's a question of 'how do I get to the Commendation as quickly as possible?', which means continuing in the Assault tree. And always on the left because I prefer Infantry-heavy armies.

You don't need to finish a tree to get a commendation, you get it every 6 promotions regardless of which you pick.

 

[Leyrann]

The problem with +1 movement while packed is that if you unpack them with 1 movement point left, you immediately lose your remaining point. If I have that promotion I need to unpack them manually carefully leaving one guy behind. And then yeah, you get the awkward part where if you do use the focus fire or other ability, that uses up all remaining points and any units in there cannot unpack anymore.

I'm pretty sure unpacking always takes all movement points away no matter what, no? Just like other commander actions also end the unit's turn.

You don't need to finish a tree to get a commendation, you get it every 6 promotions regardless of which you pick.

Still quicker if I get it with only four promotions though.

 

[sixty4half]

I don't get how people can live without Initiative as the very first promotion. It's just so good.

I have no issues getting ranks on multiple commanders myself (I'm usually fighting on more than 3 tiles width, after all), so I don't see the issue there. What is an issue is that I tend to always pick the same few promotions, but that's mostly because Initiatve is too valuable not to pick, and then it's a question of 'how do I get to the Commendation as quickly as possible?', which means continuing in the Assault tree. And always on the left because I prefer Infantry-heavy armies.

It depends. Using Initiative may be the best first maneuver; however getting Maneuver usually gets your entire army to the front lines faster. And then, once they're unpacked they ignore terrain and attack from Embarked at full strength. If my opponent is surrounded by forests or rivers or my cities are in the tundra (Catherine) then that's my go to.

Other times, having 6 packed at a time may be better than 4 with Initiative.

I tride the first 4 multiple times in my first few games and it's my believe Manuever wins 50% of the time over the other 3 with Assault coming in 2nd.

 

[Leyrann]

however getting Maneuver usually gets your entire army to the front lines faster.

My army only needs to get to the frontline once though, and usually that's before the declaration of war - and if I get attacked, well, I keep my army commanders spread out for a reason. I can always immediately react to an attack even if it comes as a surprise.

And then, once they're unpacked they ignore terrain and attack from Embarked at full strength. If my opponent is surrounded by forests or rivers or my cities are in the tundra (Catherine) then that's my go to.

Feels too niche to me. I'd rather either fight on a chokepoint or by completely circling around instead of assaulting from water.

And honestly, this bit:

Using Initiative may be the best first maneuver;

makes me think you haven't seen the true value of Initiative. Namely, you can arbitrarily pop units into your commander and out on the other side to reposition them, or even put them into the commander, move the commander (but not so far that the commander has no remaining movement points) and then pop them out. It gives insane battlefield mobility for your units. Oh yeah and they have movement points remaining even if you pop them onto vegetated, rough, wet or river terrain.

 

[sixty4half]

My army only needs to get to the frontline once though, and usually that's before the declaration of war - and if I get attacked, well, I keep my army commanders spread out for a reason. I can always immediately react to an attack even if it comes as a surprise.



Feels too niche to me. I'd rather either fight on a chokepoint or by completely circling around instead of assaulting from water.

And honestly, this bit:



makes me think you haven't seen the true value of Initiative. Namely, you can arbitrarily pop units into your commander and out on the other side to reposition them, or even put them into the commander, move the commander (but not so far that the commander has no remaining movement points) and then pop them out. It gives insane battlefield mobility for your units. Oh yeah and they have movement points remaining even if you pop them onto vegetated, rough, wet or river terrain.

I've used it several times. Your comments make me think you've probably only been in a couple of wars so far but let me assure you, you cannot always pick your battle sites and being able to reposition your army for the entire duration of a war is far superior.

 

[Taefin]

I’ve been finding that taking the first 4 levels in the bastion tree to rush to +5 CS commendation cracks deity wide open. I take initiative and the assault tree next, although that is where I might start considering dipping into mobility. Usually the first war starts defensively, and I can get to Lv5 before before needing to go on offense.

I wonder if instant fortification is a bug, since that is actually two turns faster than normal (the text says “one fewer” right?), but being able to set up fortifications instantly in position around a city lets you do things that would cost so many sacrificial units otherwise, and then the AI no longer has a CS advantage on you when attacking.

 

[ProMeTheus112]

I like commanders, been trying to use all the trees they all seem good. And building more commanders, even if they maybe aren't all going to get XP is good, for positioning forces or moving them but also because they will increase how many units you get to keep for next age. So there is a choice there how many commanders you get of each type and they're pretty expansive so you won't get the same amount every time etc cool stuff.
Also I like that only commanders get XP, I think it gets a little bit messy when every single unit can get different XP perks.

 

[Melkus]

Another - maybe non-obvious - thing about Maneuver (the Persian commander I'm playing right now had Initiative from the start anyway, so I got it extremely early by taking out a close-by IP) : He can hoover up additional XPs all over the battlefield because you can send him back and forth on a frontline during a turn.
(My commander even has 4 moves now, can't really remember why)

 

[ggmoyang]

Another - maybe non-obvious - thing about Maneuver (the Persian commander I'm playing right now had Initiative from the start anyway, so I got it extremely early by taking out a close-by IP) : He can hoover up additional XPs all over the battlefield because you can send him back and forth on a frontline during a turn.
(My commander even has 4 moves now, can't really remember why)

Packed commander gets bonus movement. I pack a scout to a commander for this.

 

[sixty4half]

And Maneuver has a +1 Movement for Commander upgrade that gets him up to 4 if he has a unit packed.

It's really good for repositioning. Opponent starting to surround your position? Pack up the army and move 4 tiles away to safety.

 

[tman2000]

After 5 playthoughs, only once did I ever get more than 1 commander with XP point. I really wanted one or two commanders to be a mayor of sorts, and give bonuses to towns/cities, maybe another to help move units around, but you have to fight to get XP, and in that case, you almost have to put the XP you gain in skills to help you fight. There needs to be some way for commanders to get XP without fighting, but maybe not allow that XP to be used in the left two sections (only in the right 3, or some such rule).

Right now, from my own experience, and friends, and watching playthrough videos, only the left 2 sections get used 99% of the time.

I think you're meant to build up forces over time, then do a massive campaign all at once. Also commanders can carry over units to the next age.

So the flow is meant to be stick around home building up forces, then mobilize and gain exp, then do it all over again. Because this cycle continues between ages, you won't be interrupted by age changes. I think constant warfare is universally bad in 7 and it's big arrow thinking and there will be times if your military campaign didn't pan out, you try to retreat, heal regroup, get peace.

I've noticed the AI will never accept peace, but if you march an army into their territory and come near a city, they'll change their mind.

 

[StargazingDog]

You don't need to finish a tree to get a commendation, you get it every 6 promotions regardless of which you pick.

 

[Leyrann]

Speaking of commanders, is it just me or does the Initiative promotion break after Era change?