Yellow Russia?

[Mondor]

Just tried the Total Realism mod.

Although generally it looks more fantastic (i.e. far from reality) than the original game, one thing surprised me most - is the color change of Russia.

In original Civ4, Russia has orange and black colors. That's Russian Royal combination, used till now in ribbon of most important military award (Award of St. George). So what was the reason to change it to yellow?

Taking into account you have Russian in your team, it makes me wonder even more.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

In previous versions, we used to have a good flag for Russia - two-headed eagle on a yellow background, and yellow suited it very well. Actually, I don't know if Russia has any real "national" color - like red for England, or blue for France. Russian rulers were never very concerned about it - the closest would probably be blue and white of St. Andrews'. So as long as it's not pink, it suits me well.

 

[Mondor]

Indeed, but why to insult those, who know and cherish Russian history? As I said - orange and black are Royal (Royal: the one that belongs to kings) colors, not national. So changing the color of the flag to the one that is not linked to the country has no meaning to me. In fact - the question was WHY it was changed. Just curious.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I think I answered that in my previous post - because it suited the flag.

Actually, I've never heard about Orange having anything to do with Russian monarchy - I thought it was yellow (golden) - black. The last flag in this link (go "Импeраторские штандарты" on the right, can't seem to link directly to it), though it appears orange, is actually described as yellow - just like all the other flags used in coronations of Russian emperors.

Care to provide any sources on royal colors of Russia? Heraldry is one of my hobbies, so I find this very interesting.

Oh, and the colors of st. George's Order are usually attributed to fire and gunpowder, not traced to royal arms.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

I thought the monarchy colours were yellow, black and white?

Plus, Firaxis changed the colours from Orange to Dark Red in any case.

 

[Anaztazioch]

Fraxis uses "arabian looking cavalary" for Persian Immortals, so... dont rely on their knowledge

 

[Mondor]

Although you'll get much more results from Google, here is one example (in Russian, sorry, but it doesn't matter, because what is interesting is in pictures):

http://www.vexillography.narod.ru/empirar3.htm
http://dragons-nest.ru/def/st_george.php?PHPSESSID=8e34e0aaaf8ebf257b

You can see that orange and black were colors of Russian arms since Ekaterina, and therefore were propagated to flags and all different signs related to king and army.

Also in the first website you will find the link to flags and arms of Russia before Peter, and again - the eagle is black and orange.

After reviewing all the images I have of Russian flags and arms, I believe you can put almost any colors, because Russia had quite a long history and had different colors for different areas of appliance (e.g. white-blue for navy). But if to choose two colors that lasted more than others in most important areas (like arms), probably the best choice is orange with black.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I tend to believe that orange in those flags represents heraldic "gold", as heraldry knows no orange tincture (and by Catherine's times Russian heraldrists were quite competent by western standards), and, ironically, is better shown as yellow. For example, there's no doubt that Russian coat of arms of those days was a black two-headed eagle on yellow/gold, and orange canvas would probably be used in army flags as an adequate "golden" substitute. Although, this is still an opinion of mine, not a fact. It is interesting to note that in the second link you've given, the article about st. George's order denotes its colors as black and yellow (orange).

Still, the more I think, the more I find yellow a good color for Russia, as tsar's personal standard was yellow, as was the background of eagle on Russian coat of arms, both greater and lesser, and white-yellow-black tricolore was for some time used as Russia's state flag.

Many other colors can also be used, just as you said, the second most suitable I'd call the sky blue of st. Andrew's Order (the only order senior than st. George's in hierarchy).

The problem that persists with all three is that none of these colors (orange, yellow, light blue) were widely used for the uniforms, and that's one thing Civ 4 engine uses them. From this point of view, a kind of darker green is probably best (and when I had my personal mod for Civ 3, I used something like this for Russia - and units tended to have just a right look).

Oh, and might I add that I in no way seek to "insult" or "defile" the memory of st. George's. I have a very deep respect for the award, more so because my great-grandfather was a full st. George's cross cavalier, and I'm actually very irritated by the fact that everyone and their dog now wear st. George's ribbons in Russia - isn't this honor meant to be earned?

 

[Mondor]

Regarding the ribbons - I think it's good that people are wearing it, as they don't pretend to be cavaliers of St.George award. For them these colors are the colors of Russian military history which are more associated to WW2 than to Barclay de Tolly. Interesting how many people knows this guy had conquered the Paris?..

So, wearing that ribbon is a well gesture of respect to fallen heroes as it holds the meaning of memory and unity. Although I would agree that guys who wears the uniform or awards without any right to do so are

Well, concluding this topic, I could only agree to you that yellow is fine for Russia, as long as it's gold

 

[davbenbak]

I've always favored dark green like the jackets Russian infantry wore in the 17th & 18th century. I guess that's why I feel obligated to crush the yellow russians asap just to get them off the map.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I've always favored dark green like the jackets Russian infantry wore in the 17th & 18th century. I guess that's why I feel obligated to crush the yellow russians asap just to get them off the map.

Once again, unfortunately, dark green is extremely suitable for traditional islamic civs - Arabs and Ottomans (and, frankly, no other color is possible for them). I wonder if they're going to make some new colors in "Beyond the Sword", to accomodate new civs. Maybe a new olive green color is due for Russia in next version of TR - I'll try it.

 

[davbenbak]

What happened to the empirial double eagle flag from past versions? The leader is Peter right? When the Russian and French units are next to each other it sure plays tricks on my eyes. And what's with green for the Arabs and Turks? Why is no other color possible? I think the turks would be fine with orange since there are no Scots in the game. The only civ that might be more entitiled to green than Russia would be the Irish.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

All flags were changed to modern ones. I was against it, so don't ask.

Arabs can't be anything but green, IMO - and Turks got this shade of green by inertia, because some team members played too much EU2. The colors will surely be revised when BtS is out - not very far away, really.

 

[Mondor]

Yes, the war between Russia and France looks funny, however, it is historically correct. Imagine, Russia and France had massive wars in 1812 (France attacked Russia, took Moscow and were defeated), 1814 (Russians took Paris) and 1815 (captured Paris once more in 1817). All the time they were using three-colored flags which look quite similar, so probably tricks in your eyes don't stay close to ones of citizens of Paris.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Not quite - at that time Russia used tricolore only as a naval jack (and IIRC, there were no naval battles between Russia and France at that time). Early XIX century Russia, funny as it may seem, still lacked a state flag. The first one, yellow-black-white tricolore, was adopted at the time of Nicholas I, two decades later.

 

[Mondor]

You're right of course, the Russian flag as we know it became an official flag in 1883. However, Russians used three-colored flags in battles, although they were looking different and colors had a little bit different tone. Take a look at paintings of battles of that time - ones by Vereschagin, for example - you'll see them.

Although I bet people like davbenbak wouldn't see the difference...

 

[davbenbak]

And what kind of people would those be?

 

[Mondor]

Well, this is a question of psychology. No offense, pure science

Just some people don't pay attention to details, especially graphical ones. Some people don't have problems with separating colors and shapes, and some do. I would say this is a level of detailed elaboration. For example - take a look at flags of Austria and Latvia. Do they look the same to you? Or flags of Paraguay, Russia and France. If yes - then you need more differentiation between graphical images you see in the game. Simply saying, you would prefer if flags would be just pure red, pure green or any other color.

The similar problem is how people read. Applying little attention to details we read misspelled words and don't realize they are misspelled. Is it a problem? Not at all, it's a feature.

So, it doesn't matter what flag Russia will have in the game, as long as it has the same colors in similar proportion as other flag in the game, it will "play tricks" to your eyes.

I wonder if your reaction to leaders animated portraits in another thread of this forum has the same source as the problem with flags - too many details requires too much attention, which you can not afford.