[BTS] Yet Another Succession Game

That's an unfair mind trick, but I'll take the bait.. I will play 15 turns before midnight (it's 8pm here) :deadhorse:

Edit - actually I'll do it tomorrow :D (gotta get some sleep.. if you want to play on skip me, pls go ahead, I really don't mind)
 
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Opened the save.. Ughhhh.. Didn't play any turns yet (not even sure I wanna play these), but in case Hannibal is plotting on you, I see two ways to limit damages on your side.

3whip the Settler in Mecca. The hill 2S3W of Carthage cannot have Hannibal's culture. Place the city here and you'll get +4 trade bonus and +1 "you liberated our cities" diplo. Can then beg ivory and avoid DoW (assuming you haven't begged yet).
Care to elaborate how avoid DoW happens? I was always sure that getting to whatever relation status does not matter anymore once they have hand fulls. So beg would delay declaration, but what does the gift do?
 
The gift allows you to beg. I don't like doing this but here it looks like the only half-viable option

Simply getting him to pleased won't avoid DoW if he's already plotting on you
 
Don't know.

From my experience with earlish DoW, it's better to DoW yourself (no formed stack and I think AI's are easier to negotiate especially if you snag disband worker for war success) and use settler as part of peace deal. However, that would need holding against couple axes/swords. It might not the case here.
 
Not sure what you mean by snag disband worker. Anyway here there's no way you can protect Medina if Hannibal decides to declare in the next 6-8 turns

Dealing with pre-construction DoWs is easy assuming that you don't lose a city..
 
In 4 turns you can have archery+masonry (assuming gold is worked) with some archers being whipped in T3. Whip madrassa in the city for culture next turn turn, OF and 1 whip some archers in few more turns. Get walls installed somehow (ugly part is that being flat city with no culture at the moment).

It's just immortal, most likely just 2-3 swords axe, and 2 archers coming your way. Will extra ten turns improve things dramatically in your favor?

eidt: I am not sure from reports but primary I would worry that you do not have 6 turns. Whip some chariots for distraction in such case? (it would be nice to know how long the fist has been looming).
 
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Earlier I only played a few turns. Assuming the same happens in the 'live' save, Hannibal declares in T76, with a Sword and Axe (presumably more on the way), taking Medina, which is only defended by a warrior. Really not much we can do in just 2-3 turns. The gift idea is probably the best, but it might just postpone the DoW by 10 turns, and it's not a sure thing we can successfully be gifted Ivory. However, a possible 10 turn delay would put us in a much more solid position, and we should be easily able to hold back whatever he sends our way, provided he doesn't magically get catas that quickly.

Quite some ifs, but worth a shot I guess. Not exactly a sure thing we have iron somewhere close either, and with losing Medina, we won't have horses either (until the one in the south is hooked up). Swords against Archers on flatland with 0-20% culture is a losing battle.

Edit: Hannibal hasn't been plotting for very long - according to savegame names he started plotting in 1320BC, whatever turn that is. But he will declare in 2-3 turns. In general there is no guarantee of a long wait between fist and DoW btw. In another game I played, fist popped up, and DoW followed the next turn, with no provocation or anything like that, nor terrible relations.
 
I am not very familiar with succession games. Is save scumming widely accepted?
 
I'll only attach the save for now if y'all want to play on, will write-up later (got quite a few pictures). Shouldn't be very hard to kill Hannibal from here on (just take cease fire as soon as he's willing to talk, then snipe his iron city first). Things didn't go quite as planned, but the game isn't in danger anymore.

@Snowbird I'm not sure what you exactly mean by "save-scumming", but I don't think reloading is acceptable in SGs if that's what you mean (except misclicks) -- the idea is to play on and deal with your mistakes and other peoples' mistakes (not really familiar with SGs either, though)
 

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@Snowbird I'm not sure what you exactly mean by "save-scumming", but I don't think reloading is acceptable in SGs if that's what you mean (except misclicks) -- the idea is to play on and deal with your mistakes and other peoples' mistakes (not really familiar with SGs either, though)
I was just needlessly over-sarcastic. Overall, someone played to DoW and a city loss and reported in a rather deatailed way. Some people might think he might have uploaded save as well.

Good job on progressing the game by the way.
 
Okay. T73-91.
Spoiler :

T73.

Hannibal is plotting. Not sure what were the odds of him plotting on us instead of on SB, but in any case it's better to play safe (esp. after reading Pangaea's post lol). There is a hill 2S3W of Carthage that cannot have Carthaginian culture:


So I immediately 3whip the Settler in Mecca (into a barracks, forget about the Madrassa for now -- Hannibal is a very easy HA rush target as all his cities are on flatland). The idea is to gift Hannibal a city and beg something (ideally not ivory because it's expensive and he might not want to give it away, but that's the only extra res he has for now, so that will have to do). Then we get 10 turns of peace and can easily HA rush him.

Research is set to Archery (2T), and a worker is started in Medina (2whip into an Archer + chop another one). Damascus stops building a Settler and starts on a Granary (much more useful for now). Chariots that were on the other side of the world are moved back (takes time). The one that was in SB's land immediately moves back to Carthage -- we want to know what he's doing. I also considered disbanding the scouting wb (it costs maintenance and doesn't bring much for now), but we have so much gold that I decided to keep scouting.

T74. Settler is out, not much to notify except that Hannibal doesn't have any units on SB's borders (he doesn't even share borders with him apparently, which is not good news for us).

T75. Hannibal's troops are on my border, and more seem to be coming -


I have no time to gift him a newly-settled-crappy city, so I decide to gift him Medina (considered gifting him Damascus instead, but he could still take Medina next turn if the beg fails, so I don't like it). First I 1pop whip a warrior there (just so it's at size 1 -- don't want to advance Hannibal)



Then I gift him Medina, he's immediately pleased (+4 trade relations). I don't beg Ivory immediately as I can beg a bigger amount of cash every turn, so waiting increases my chances of being able to beg Ivory, and he won't declare on the next turn (has to reinforce Medina first).

It's much better to gift him a city than "losing" a city -- no war success for him, and you don't lose a warrior.

Workers are now all pre-chopping forests in Mecca and Damascus, waiting for HBR. Damascus gets a barracks ready @18/50 so I can 2pop whip it with 28 overflow into a HA when I reach HBR.

Then I keep the chariot in Hannibal's land to check for any movement and wait to see his troops on my borders (Mecca can get a quick burst of CG2 Archers if needed).

The settler is ofc sent back to the southern horse+plainscow spot

T80-81.

I meet this guy with the wb -


He's at war with Ragnar. Later I get demands from him to join the war and from SB to cancel deals with Raggy. I decline both (DoW'ing Raggy would help with diplo points with Pacal, but I think it would make it harder to get a ceasefire with Hannibal when the time comes).

Mansa gets Alpha -- after HBR I put a few turns into it and trade (could go straight for maths - Construction but Alpha gives a lot of flexibility)


Not sure when Raggy got Alpha, didn't pay attention (he won't trade anything at cautious anyway).

T83. HBR. Start whipping/chopping HAs in Mecca & Damascus (barracks but no stables), other cities are useless for now.

T86. Trade for Alpha with Mansa.

T88. Finally some movement from Hannibal's side :

I have 4 HAs and 2 chariots ready, so I let him DoW. He has a few more units coming as reinforcements. New HAs still flowing from Mecca and Damascus.

T89.




He's got 2 stacks of 4 units, but only one spear and 2 axes in Medina. I have one Archer coming on this turn in Baghdad. So I take Medina and let him take Baghdad. I win a lucky 40% fight against a spearman, then the 2 Axemen are both 80% fights (chariot & HA).



One of my HAs that were on the hill kills the adjacent swordsman and the other one goes in Medina to reinforce it -- the less units in Baghdad, the easier it will be to take it later).

T90.

Hannibal takes Baghdad (loses one unit on my Archer, protective trait ftw :ar15:). Only 2 Numidian cavalries in Baghdad now. I lose 2 or 3 HAs (don't remember) in counter attack, but I can now wipe him out (Mecca doing 1HA/turn with chops).





T91.


Hannibal most likely has no stack left. We have a super-medic-3-movement chariot. As soon as he'll talk I think he'll take a ceasefire (we have a lot of war success)

All these moves weren't 100% safe, but taking a few risks can be very rewarding ;)


Research set on maths to go for Construction & Elephants, then kill Shaka (not many beakers have been spent, so you can change if you want to play a more peaceful game)
 
@Pedro78 Well played and a very nice report! One doesn't see such detailed descriptions of wars every day :)
 
I was just needlessly over-sarcastic. Overall, someone played to DoW and a city loss and reported in a rather deatailed way. Some people might think he might have uploaded save as well.

Good job on progressing the game by the way.

Not really. I uploaded the save. Then played privately for a few more turns, and mentioned briefly in a spoiler what occurred (in an edit). Maybe I shouldn't have, but the save is what I uploaded, and what Pedro played from.

Edit: Very well played Pedro! Lesson in effective and smart warfare :)
 
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Well done @Pedro78 the best here is that this war will not likely cripple our economy/research. Hence the necessity to make peace with Hannibal as soon as we have the chance to cease fire.
After my turnset it was my intention to already prepare for war against our neighbors: had we played differently, Hannibal could have been an easy target; Shaka is a necessary target.
Let's hope we can have Elephants soon enough!
 
Pacal is willing to give us Iron Working for HBR in the latest save. Not sure we have iron but still a good trade...
 
Hmm didn't look at the trades before I stopped playing but yup that's a good trade. Usually it wouldn't be (no need to trade away HBR in most cases), but here Mansa has it already, so Pacal might get it anytime now.
 
Played to t103--300BC...

Situation:


I signed peace (strongly considered uploading before that, but... decided better to do it myself).

Nice stuff - got some cities, can convert to budhism, got construction (in peace deal, lol), pillaged some cottages (~50gold just before signing off).

Bad stuff - no libraries, ~0 beakers/0gold at 0%, Carthagia has WE... I had to kill one already. Iron is not connected - I hoped to get Sailing via trades/peace, but needs one road between hippo and river.
Pacal won't talk... I took Ragnar's advice and cancelled deal (why were borders openbed with both sides of war?). If it was my game I would gift Construction to Vikings.
Mansa is building something from Aesthetics wonders (Zeus?).
Some cities still have no culture.

Suggestions:
convert to Budhism for + relations.
gift Construction to Ragnar, trade Construction to Mansa for whatever he gives. (I traded half Maths for Masonry, IW came from Pacal). I think with cats Ragnar quite likely at least cripples Pacal, which slows general pace of the game.
visit Zulu for fast hit on two western cities (one has gems, the other is in a good defensive position). (I'd probably do with just HA - after heal up and dragging reinforcements, there should be ~10 left).
Tech Currency - with last capture+pillage, should have enough to get through.

Could bribe Shaka on Carthage, but I would not do it.
 

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Looks like you broke Hannibal allright :lol: Very well done.

Not loving the idea of declaring on Shaka, a unit spammer with anti-horse UU, but I'm sure the better players can pull it off. Definitely swap to Buddhism though. Unusual religious setup in this game, so it's a no-brainer.

Anybody picking this one up? I'm playing many other maps right now, so better to pass up on this one, at least for now.
 
How do you get the extra info on screen. Eg great person progress, additional info on civs at bottom right of screen. Is this a mod or an in game option?
 
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