Yet another whipping exploit.

Niklas

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The bug exploited: Overflow from whipping is not halved when applied to a wonder. (Bug report here)

The setup:
  • Epic level.
  • Slavery in place to enable whipping.
  • A (coastal) town capable of much more growth than production.
  • A wonder.
The exploit:
You want to build a wonder. Your town is not a very good producer, but has a fair growth rate, so you would prefer to whip the wonder to completion. However, whipping a wonder is expensive, since the amount of hammers you get per population point is halved for wonders (i.e. +22 hammers instead of the normal +44 hammers for Epic). This means that you must hand-build quite a long way, or grow very high, or both, before you can afford to whip the remainder.

Now, I'm telling you that you don't have to grow all the way to do that whipping, in fact whenever you want to you can whip 2 pop for +43 hammers on the wonder build, and then continue on building as before. In other words, it is possible to partially whip wonders, you don't have to whip all at once. Sounds good, doesn't it? What if I throw in an extra Work boat in the deal, for free?

Here's the trick. Whenever you want to rush those two pop, put a fresh Work boat first in the queue, before the wonder you're building. The Work boat costs 45 hammers, and each population point gives +44 hammers, so it will take 2 pop to rush it. This will also generate an overflow of +43 hammers,
that will flow into the wonder, in full! So the effect is that you will have whipped 2 pop for +43 hammers on the wonder build, and you get a free Work boat as well!

We're actually abusing two bugs here. The other, which I would argue is a bug simply because it enables this situation, is that whipping on Epic gives +44 hammers and not the more logical +45.

There are of course variations of this theme that work in other situations, and in conjuction with other whipping anomalies. You could build a number of things so that they each have 1P left to completion. Then whenever you want to whip, move one of them to the front of the queue, whip, and get the overflow for the wonder. This is a lot more work than the Work boat trick, but on the other hand it will give you +43 hammers to the wonder for only 1 pop lost!
Another variation is if you're not coastal, and thus don't have access to Work boats, you could instead rush an Axeman or Spearman. That will be slightly less efficient though, since they cost a bit more leaving less overflow for the wonder.

When you start getting production bonuses, like a forge, the numbers will change but the techniques still apply. Combining this with the well-known whipping bug, whipping that Work boat (45 hammers) at a 25% bonus on Epic speed, you would get the same +43 hammers towards the wonder but at the cost of only one pop!
 
is this actually exploitable? what do u want to do w/ 10 workboats u can't use? how fast can u get a wonder really? how much unhappy pop will u have by the time ur done?
 
Do whatever you like with the work boats, they're just a bonus. :)

Since you are rushing two pop, this works best in a situation where it takes exactly 15 turns to grow back those two pop, so that you can rush again when the happiness hit expires. Then you end up with one unhappy pop constantly.

Compared to getting a wonder by building it in a high-production town, this technique will probably take longer. But compared to building it hammer by hammer in a town like the one in my example, with little production but plenty of food, you can significantly decrease the build time.

So yes, this is exploitable, though my actual example only works in a very special situation. But whipping with 1P left on some build would be very powerful in any setting, and would definitely be exploitable.
 
Niklas said:
Do whatever you like with the work boats, they're just a bonus. :)

Since you are rushing two pop, this works best in a situation where it takes exactly 15 turns to grow back those two pop, so that you can rush again when the happiness hit expires. Then you end up with one unhappy pop constantly.

Compared to getting a wonder by building it in a high-production town, this technique will probably take longer. But compared to building it hammer by hammer in a town like the one in my example, with little production but plenty of food, you can significantly decrease the build time.

So yes, this is exploitable, though my actual example only works in a very special situation. But whipping with 1P left on some build would be very powerful in any setting, and would definitely be exploitable.

yes but which wonder are u gna finish at that rate?
 
For the situation with the slow builder, only early ones like Stonehenge I presume. But the general trick doesn't stand and fall with a slow builder, it could easily be used in a high-production town as well.

But I'm not forcing anyone to use this, quite the opposite, in fact I'm hoping that the bug will be fixed and the issue go away. ;)
 
Not Really much of a bug/exploit, as the overflow is rarely going to be that much. It is a way to get food converted into production, but getting a Wonder at that rate is going to be hard (really only the Ancient ones work)

The 44 is a problem and was fixed witrh Warlords, but the basic fact that Worker Hammers work differently for Wonders is the problem, because you can't seperate the Worker Hammers from the other Hammers.

The true way to "fix" this exploit would be to give no penalty to whipping a Wonder. (that way any overflow would be less than whipping in the first place)

The best Option is to fix Whipping so that it is like Chopping (whip 1 pop away as many times as you like as long as you have production, each time adds X turns :( and Y Hammers to the production... and the SAME amount no matter what you are building.) You could even make it give 20 instead of... until say Code of Laws so that it won't be abused like Chopping is.

The Currently Most efficient ways of doing this (under Warlords where the bugs have been fixed) is to whip
a Warrior= 1 pop 15 overflow
or
a Axeman/Spearman=2 pop 25 overflow
 
Krikkitone said:
The best Option is to fix Whipping so that it is like Chopping (whip 1 pop away as many times as you like as long as you have production, each time adds X turns :( and Y Hammers to the production... and the SAME amount no matter what you are building.) You could even make it give 20 instead of... until say Code of Laws so that it won't be abused like Chopping is.

Yes, I've definitely thought the same thing. It would be a whole lot simpler and cleaner, wouldn't it?
 
Krikkitone said:
You could even make it give 20 instead of... until say Code of Laws so that it won't be abused like Chopping is.
Hehe, Code of Laws giving you more whipping power :lol: Now that's a legal system :)
 
Thanks for the info. :goodjob:

If the coastal town is your capital than a major disadvantage to this would be the lost commerce and science due to less citizens working tiles, which can slow your early research efforts down.
 
DaviddesJ said:
Surely everyone has known this for many months now.
Um, define everyone please? I didn't know it, and the GOTM staff that I was in contact with obviously didn't either. And if they don't know it, then it cannot be very widespread. So "everyone" within a very small circle then. :p

For the record I agree with Krikkitone, it would be much cleaner (and more realistic!) if you could whip each pop point separately for a fixed amount of hammers.

@DJMGator13: Glad to be of help, I'm sure you guys will use this to the best effect. :mischief:
 
Niklas said:
Um, define everyone please? I didn't know it, and the GOTM staff that I was in contact with obviously didn't either.

You get overflow from whipping: surely you knew that. And the overflow is just overflow, it's the same amount regardless of what you do with it.

Did you think that, when you change what you're building this turn, the game would retroactively recalculate how much overflow you have (remembering that it came from poprushing last turn, and not from some other form of production)? And then re-recalculate if you change again? It seems farfetched.
 
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