Your thoughts about Tolerant trait

[MaxAstro]

I mostly agree with the people who say you shouldn't be able to axe war weariness via Tolerant; honestly, I'd prefer Tolerant not allow you to build other civ's palaces at all, as that is rather unthematic.

The one thing I would really like to see Tolerant GAIN is no anarchy. I miss the old Spiritual Elohim, mainly because no anarchy was such a thematic ability for them.

 

[MiKa523]

I mostly agree with the people who say you shouldn't be able to axe war weariness via Tolerant; honestly, I'd prefer Tolerant not allow you to build other civ's palaces at all, as that is rather unthematic.

Couldn't agree more.

It's like denying your own line of descent and nationality, if you ditch your own palace, which seems kinda intolerant towards your own civ specific uniqueness.

At least to me the trait would still be very appealing without the ability to build other palaces.

 

[grumpylad]

Just a quickie, I like the new tolerant feature, has anyone else been able to build multiple palaces? I switched to Dovello, noticed that I had lost my original mana so I rebuilt the Elohim palace however I kept the Dovello palace, I have not been able to replicate this yet with other nations ( I have a Svelt town that I am watching to see if it becomes availible.

 

[Caradoc]

I'm playing Balseraphs with a Tolerant leader (Ethne) and have managed to capture an Amurite city. So far things work pretty well, except my Adepts will not upgrade to Wizards in the Amurite city. Maybe that's fixed by the patch.

Has anyone had Tolerant as a Adaptive trait? (Or a Tolerant Perpentach -- ha!) What happens when the trait is lost?

 

[Chip56]

Has anyone had Tolerant as a Adaptive trait? (Or a Tolerant Perpentach -- ha!) What happens when the trait is lost?

Its blocked from adaptive and insane.

 

[Tarquelne]

The one thing I would really like to see Tolerant GAIN is no anarchy. I miss the old Spiritual Elohim, mainly because no anarchy was such a thematic ability for them.

I'd like to see Tolerant gain no anarchy and Spiritual lose it.

 

[MiKa523]

I'm playing Balseraphs with a Tolerant leader (Ethne) and have managed to capture an Amurite city. So far things work pretty well, except my Adepts will not upgrade to Wizards in the Amurite city. Maybe that's fixed by the patch.

Already reported that bug and it's not fixed yet ("b").

 

[xienwolf]

To make the AI understand this and do it properly, we probably need to seperate the CvUnit::getUpgradeCity function into two parts. Right now it searches for the best city to upgrade to a specific unit in, but only searching for the unit which that Civilization is able to create. In the case of the Tolerant Civs, we have to consider the fact that the upgrade will be to a different unit at each city (potentially), and thus need to run a function first to find out what upgrades are available for the unit and decide which one is the best. Then do a search for which cities that upgrade can happen in and go designate the best City for it.

That part is just for the AI, and might be a bit tricky.


For just being able to upgrade at different cities to UU upgrades, the vital function is CvCity::canUpgrade. Kael already set this function to work properly in itself, but early in the function it calls out a few checks which also need cleaned up for it to work properly, since they make the same check Kael modified in this function redundantly.

In order for this to work though, you must also modify CvPlayer::canTrain to loop over all cities the player owns if they are Tolerant and check for upgrade types there, and CvPlot::canTrain needs modified so that it will check according to the building requirements of the City UBs instead of the Player's.


I've already done the CvPlot change and got that one working fine. And I wrote this up while checking why it didn't also solve the upgrade issue as notes for later. So if Kael doesn't beat me to it, and I don't forget about it, I'll post some working code later on which will allow you to upgrade units properly with the Tolerant Trait.

EDIT: Seems I was quite wrong about this approach. Modifications to the CvPlayer function resulted in being allowed to build all of the -1 Cost units/items. And didn't fix the upgrade issue

EDIT2: Annoying bit of code to deal with, quite a few twists and turns to track down. So far the best I have managed is to get it so you can still upgrade on your normal path while in the other cities, but that makes it so that you only need to have 1 building ANYWHERE to satisfy Building prereqs. And still failed to enable the Unique Unit upgrade. Overall, I think I am amused enough now to give it a serious go

 

[deadliver]

I think perhaps the devs have been misunderstood regarding this trait. IMHO this trait would encourage me to focus more on flipping my neighbours' cities, warfare is not the only way to grab cities. The Elohim are Tolerant because they allow the flipped city to continue practicing their own culture. Sure there may be some wrinkles to iron out (I would restrict building other palaces those of good civs).

 

[Zechnophobe]

I think perhaps the devs have been misunderstood regarding this trait. IMHO this trait would encourage me to focus more on flipping my neighbours' cities, warfare is not the only way to grab cities. The Elohim are Tolerant because they allow the flipped city to continue practicing their own culture. Sure there may be some wrinkles to iron out (I would restrict building other palaces those of good civs).

That was actually my original thought as well. Of course, culture flipping is decidedly harder to accomplish, so I eventually just conquered people .

 

[Camber]

I would like to suggest a Tolerant-utilizing wonder,

Ecumenical Council.

Buildable if you have all religions in the same city (similar to the achievement that the Great Menagerie motivates you toward).

Double production speed if you are Tolerant. Subtract 10% of production cost for every Holy City in your empire's borders.

Grants +1 votes in the Overcouncil and Undercouncil (though you can only use one at a time).

Grants culture and Great Prophet points.

Speaking of the Great Menagerie, I have yet to see a Gorilla in any of my games (and I see Tigers very rarely). In my current one, I am working on Nature's Revolt and hoping it will create at least one Gorilla. I'm using an Earth2 map, and the new World had the Infernals when I got there, but no Gorillas. A fair trade, I suppose. Fortunately N. and S. America were detached, so the demons hadn't hunted in S. America yet.

Also on the note of animals, I see a lot of Griffins in the water, but I don't see any way to capture them. Is there any plan for making a sea unit-capturing unit (similar to boarding party, but with the animal subduing abilities of a Ranger)?

 

[catquiet]

Also on the note of animals, I see a lot of Griffins in the water, but I don't see any way to capture them. Is there any plan for making a sea unit-capturing unit (similar to boarding party, but with the animal subduing abilities of a Ranger)?

Can you put a Satyr on a boat and use Mezmerize Animal? I don't play FoL, so I don't know how they work.

 

[Camber]

Hmm, interesting idea. I had intended to play as Elves next, so I will try that out.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Can you put a Satyr on a boat and use Mezmerize Animal? I don't play FoL, so I don't know how they work.

Yes, you can. You can also capture DOMAIN_WATER animals like sea serpents this way. Of course, the spell doesn't work 100% of the time.


(I'm my version, I think I'll block the spell from working on water animals. That is because I'm giving OO priests a very similar spell that lets them take control of sea animals and beasts. I'll try to add a lot more sea monsters for them to capture, not the least of which would be barbarian Krakens. Cultists will be able to capture them, but Speakers will have much better odds. Also, Cultists will no longer have water walking, so they'll need a ship to take them out to find the monsters, while Speakers will have the ability to give temporary water walking to all disciple and melee units in their stack.)

 

[Blackmantle]

Another way is command 3 Druids upgraded from Cultists.

Doesn't work all of the time. But sometimes it does...

Or if you get really lucky a cultist with Command 1 could be enough. But then again: A one in ten chance is not sky-high.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Another way is command 3 Druids upgraded from Cultists.

Doesn't work all of the time. But sometimes it does...

Or if you get really lucky a cultist with Command 1 could be enough. But then again: A one in ten chance is not sky-high.

Are you forgetting that the units we are talking about are animals, and that Druids start with Subdue animal? No Command promotions are needed, and the chance of capturing them is 100%.

 

[Blackmantle]

Yes i did indeed.

 

[Arcite36575]

I would like to suggest a Tolerant-utilizing wonder,

Ecumenical Council.

Buildable if you have all religions in the same city (similar to the achievement that the Great Menagerie motivates you toward).

Double production speed if you are Tolerant. Subtract 10% of production cost for every Holy City in your empire's borders.

Grants +1 votes in the Overcouncil and Undercouncil (though you can only use one at a time).

Grants culture and Great Prophet points.

Sounds good, in theory. However, it's very easy for the player to get all the religions into one city. Every time you bulb a new religion tech, you automatically get a disciple with a 100% chance to spread the religion. And since the AI would never be able to figure out how to get all the religions in one city, this is another advantage that would skew totally in favor of the player.

 

[KillerClowns]

I would like to suggest a Tolerant-utilizing wonder,

Ecumenical Council.

Buildable if you have all religions in the same city (similar to the achievement that the Great Menagerie motivates you toward).

Double production speed if you are Tolerant. Subtract 10% of production cost for every Holy City in your empire's borders.

Grants +1 votes in the Overcouncil and Undercouncil (though you can only use one at a time).

Grants culture and Great Prophet points.

Speaking of the Great Menagerie, I have yet to see a Gorilla in any of my games (and I see Tigers very rarely). In my current one, I am working on Nature's Revolt and hoping it will create at least one Gorilla. I'm using an Earth2 map, and the new World had the Infernals when I got there, but no Gorillas. A fair trade, I suppose. Fortunately N. and S. America were detached, so the demons hadn't hunted in S. America yet.

Also on the note of animals, I see a lot of Griffins in the water, but I don't see any way to capture them. Is there any plan for making a sea unit-capturing unit (similar to boarding party, but with the animal subduing abilities of a Ranger)?

Sounds good, in theory. However, it's very easy for the player to get all the religions into one city. Every time you bulb a new religion tech, you automatically get a disciple with a 100% chance to spread the religion. And since the AI would never be able to figure out how to get all the religions in one city, this is another advantage that would skew totally in favor of the player.

Then there's a limit to how many religions can be in once city at a time, without bizarre circumstances being involved (a limit Tolerant could remove, theoretically, if your idea was implemented) and what happens when the AV and Order are in a city too long together. (They start killing each other. As in, angry rioting mobs killing and burning each other's temples down...)

 

[Yashkaf]

I'm not sure about the trait's balance, but it's definetely a lot of fun. It does however depend a lot on the civ closest to you. If you start next to the Sheaim or Balseraphs for example with their tons of cool unique units, It's a great advantage. I started next to the Doviello, and I can't even build training yards in their cities because they don't use them. Well, here comes another beastmen rush...

P.S.
A question: If I capture and elven city and build elven warriors, can they build mines in forests? I hope not, like captured elven workers. That could completely break the game.