Your thoughts about Tolerant trait

[Caradoc]

Speaking of Griffins: when you spot one, post a Mimic on a forest hill and wait for the attack. Result: flying Mimic!

 

[xienwolf]

With Patch E capturing a Doviello city means you can upgrade your units there without needing any buildings for it. So you can build adepts without a mage guild, and build/upgrade warriors to Axemen without the training yard

 

[Yashkaf]

Damn, I need to get that patch quickly before I lose this war

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

The Grigori should in MNSHO have the tolerant trait instead of the Elohim...

 

[PotatoOverdose]

The Grigori should in MNSHO have the tolerant trait instead of the Elohim...

I had this same exact idea a few days ago, makes sense given the lore behind Cassiel and the way in which grigori, lorewise, gain 'converts'.
Maybe multiple civs could have the tolerant trait instead of just the elohim?

 

[Caradoc]

Question: When you take a city that has already been captured, do you inherit the nationality of the civilization you took it from or the original founder?

 

[MiKa523]

It is the former although it is supposed to be the latter afaik.

 

[Imuratep]

Hi, I'm new here in the forums, but I play the mod since Shadow first appeared and I like it more than the basic civ. I always thought why doesn't Firaxis create a fantasy CIV and when I saw there is a really good fantasy mod, this made me happy.
Especially I am a great fan of the flavor of FFH. That's why I don't like the way the Tolerant trait works right now, because when I play the Elohim I want to play as a pacifist, not as a warmonger.

I tried a lot to get the trait working without conquering enemy cities, but all ways I could imagine were nearly impossible. I built 3 great artists to overtake a city of my enemy, but in civ it's too hard to overtake other cities with culture. I built cities near the empire of my enemies to trade them with cities near my territory. But finally you have to declare war to get any city (or to hope someone declares war on you). None of these options are fitting to this trait.

I have an idea how tolerant could work as it should. In rhys' and fall of civilization you can build embassaries of other cultures. Why can't we use this feature for fall from heaven? Having an embassary could give you a diplomatic bonus to the respective civ (something around +2). But embassaries can only be build for civilizations towards which you have at least a "cautious" attitude (or if you can't link a building to the attitude you have towards other leaders, events which destroy your embassary could trigger depending on your attitude to these leaders).
Tolerant civilizations, which have an embassary to another civilization, then could be able to build a commune of this civilization in their cities which allows them to build the buildings, units etc. of this civilization.

Another idea I had concerning tolerant civs is that these civs could have a unique GP (like Cassiel's Adventurers) something like Great Diplomat, which is linked with a built commune (or to the embassaries if you want it to be available to all civilizations). You could sacrifice him to get a commune of all civs you have a embassary in a city or - to make something the Tolerant civs can't already do - to build a wonder which gives you +4 diplomatic bonus for all civilizations.

This way you solve a lot of problems with the tolerant trait:
1. You can build other civilizations' units without being obliged to lead a war against your neighbours.
2. You can give the tolerant trait to the Curiotates to whom it fits at least as well as to the Elohim. As the trait is now Tolerant wouldn't help the Curiotates at all, but with this solution it would help them a lot.
3. By linking the foreign communes to built embassaries it would mean a certain effort to be able to use the buildings.
4. It would represent what tolerant really means: That people of different cultures live together in their cities not separated in their original living area (which i don't consider to be the characteristic of a tolerant, multicultural society).
5. By restricting embassaries to civilizations towards which you have an at least neutral attitude you prevent that the Elohim have Vampire communes - unless you have learned to accept their culture at least in some way (which for me is linked with a neutral attitude to their leader).

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Imuratep, check out this thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=264496

tolerant is now a trait belonging to Decius ( renamed "conqueror" ) , and the Elohim are as pacifist as it gets

 

[Imuratep]

The problem is that in general I think reflecting a multicultural society in the game is a great idea, so I don't want to disappear the trait, but to have it changed, so that it fits the setting. The idea of a "Conqueror" trait is also very good, but that's not contradictory to using a tolerant trait like I propose.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

This way you solve a lot of problems with the tolerant trait:
1. You can build other civilizations' units without being obliged to lead a war against your neighbours.
2. You can give the tolerant trait to the Curiotates to whom it fits at least as well as to the Elohim. As the trait is now Tolerant wouldn't help the Curiotates at all, but with this solution it would help them a lot.
3. By linking the foreign communes to built embassaries it would mean a certain effort to be able to use the buildings.
4. It would represent what tolerant really means: That people of different cultures live together in their cities not separated in their original living area (which i don't consider to be the characteristic of a tolerant, multicultural society).
5. By restricting embassaries to civilizations towards which you have an at least neutral attitude you prevent that the Elohim have Vampire communes - unless you have learned to accept their culture at least in some way (which for me is linked with a neutral attitude to their leader).

I don't get it... I've been playing Elohim for 2-3 games now since Tolerant and I don't really think it has a lot of "problems".

1. The tolerant trait isn't necessarily meant to be a freebie to build all the world's units. If you could build them without conquering them first, it would be extremely overpowered. If you want to Roleplay it, the idea is that the Elohim are peaceful diplomats unless forced into war. After taking a city, they choose to allow the city to rule itself and maintain its own culture rather than brutally supressing them into the Elohim culture.

2. Hrmm I wouldn't really agree re: Kurioates. It seems like they're not really tolerant in that they accept all other cultures but rather they're united in worshipping a common god-like figure so much so that individual differences are insignificant. In this case, you end up with a blended soup of all cultures instead of multiple distinct cultures existing side-by-side. It doesn't make sense for this type of civ to suddenly extract enough individuals of a particular race out and separate them from the rest in order to form units unique to that race.

4. Tolerant just means not pushing their will and culture onto others. As said in #1 above, it makes sense for the Elohim to respect the culture of others that they're forced to conquer and allow them to continue to live as they used to. It is also a diplomatically viable way to maintain peace in a conquered city. The common people don't care who their taxes go to as long as they don't suddenly have to change their ways.

3&5. I'm kinda Meh on the embassy idea. That's like saying you can embody every social and historical aspect of a culture in a single building, enough so that you can somehow transport centuries of military tradition and train units just as if they were in their homeland. To put it another way, its like saying you've traveled the whole world because you went to Epcot Center in Disneyland once.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

Hi, my name is Einion Logos, and I'm a "Tolerant" addict.

I've been playing Tolerant for 2 weeks, 5 days and 4 hours and I think I may have a problem.

When I first started playing Elohim, I used to look over at the Kurioates and think "Hey, I wonder how Cardith is doing? Maybe I'll bring over some cupcakes and we can play some cards or something." Now I look over and wonder what I'm going to do with his centaurs after I pry the city from his cold dead fingers. That's not how a man of peace and diplomacy should act, especially one who wears a robe this white! I used to just sit at home, playing with my Altars of the Luonnotar but now I run conquest and apprenticeship! I need help! Hrmmm maybe a Courtesan would help me relax. Excuse me, I need to make some travel plans to Jubilee...

Seriously, I feel like Sylar from Heroes when I play now... I covet my neighbors powers.

 

[PinkPikachu]

Maybe a Tolerant trait could be an event triggered acquirable trait? And make it so that if things go badly or have civic restrictions that cause it to disappear? I think that'd make it much more balanced.

 

[TheGreatSteve]

Seriously, I feel like Sylar from Heroes when I play now... I covet my neighbors powers.

I think Peter is the perfect example of why Tolerant needs to stay a warmonger-friendly trait and not have a peaceful route

Killing people for their powers=Good
Taking the powers of anyone else in the area=Bad

 

[MaxAstro]

I would like to suggest a Tolerant-utilizing wonder,

Ecumenical Council.

Buildable if you have all religions in the same city (similar to the achievement that the Great Menagerie motivates you toward).

Double production speed if you are Tolerant. Subtract 10% of production cost for every Holy City in your empire's borders.

Grants +1 votes in the Overcouncil and Undercouncil (though you can only use one at a time).

Grants culture and Great Prophet points.

Ecumenical Temple? Anyone else here played Dungeon Crawl? XD

In any case, I have to agree with Fall Further's take on tolerant. That is, they renamed it Conqueror and gave it to Decius. The trait looks great on paper, but the truth is all it does is give you a HUGE incentive to go to war with your powerful neighbors. Not really something for the Elohim...

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yep, I as well find the FF "conqueror" trait much more fitting.

 

[Caradoc]

Here's a wicked little exploit: when a unit belonging to a civilization you want comes along, vacate a city and declare war. After the unit captures the city, take it back. You will find that it now has the attributes of that unit's own civilization.

 

[feydras]

Gotta agree that Tolerant doesn't feel right for the Elohim. It is a very neat addition to FfH and it should be used some place but allowing the Elohim to build things like Breeding pits doesn't feel right.

I agree it would be a better fit for Cassiel as he is all about converting and it would be an interesting addition of units to a civ that can't build priests. I don't think the Grigori need a power boost though so that would have to be considered.

I haven't played the FF mod in awhile but recently checked it out and it looks like that is the direction they are going. I like the look of what they are trying to do with the Elohim by boosting their libraries and monasteries and such. It emphasizes the peacefulness aspect.

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

Gotta agree that Tolerant doesn't feel right for the Elohim. It is a very neat addition to FfH and it should be used some place but allowing the Elohim to build things like Breeding pits doesn't feel right.

I agree it would be a better fit for Cassiel as he is all about converting and it would be an interesting addition of units to a civ that can't build priests. I don't think the Grigori need a power boost though so that would have to be considered.

I haven't played the FF mod in awhile but recently checked it out and it looks like that is the direction they are going. I like the look of what they are trying to do with the Elohim by boosting their libraries and monasteries and such. It emphasizes the peacefulness aspect.

Actually, I think everything except for the Palace is fine.... the concept being that once the Elohim conquer a city, they allow the city to continue to exist and function as they did before. Conceptually, this means that the Calabim mayor of the city continues to be a Calabim except he pays tithes to the Elohim central government instead of the Calabim central government. Thats actually the core definition of "Tolerant".

When the time for War comes, the central government requests units and the city provides whatever units they know how to train.

 

[feydras]

That's a workable interpretation of it for the Elohim.

I still think it fits Cassiel better. 'Abandon your gods and we have no quarrel with you.' He is essentially accepting them as they are once they drop religion. The remnants of the conquered empires join in with his loose empire and continue on with his protection.