Zeppelin

[Tekamthi]

Now I am confused. Zeppelins have to embark now to get to water? Last time I checked they were flying, so no embark needed. They weren't brilliant at sea, anyways. Any ranged ship could take them.

Not sure an additional movement point makes any difference. At this point I have cavalry moving 8 tiles per turn using railroads.

its true, they're not great at sea.. but say you're facing a much larger deity-spam force... moving zeps in to support your outnumbered navy can significantly even the odds, in my experience, and their ability to retreat onto land once damaged is a very strong "naval" ability. When there's no naval threat, they can similarly back up your land units.

Are you saying your cavalry can use enemy rail, too? I may need to explore a new upgrade path if so, though I understand what you mean in friendly, at least. But the zep can cross mountains and, assuming I'm remembering correctly that it starts with ignore terrain costs, can also move well in enemy and undeveloped territory, where your cavalry might only move 2. Am I wrong in understanding that the trailblazer promos will also double its moves in some terrain? granted that this is a bit strange, it seems like it is a good complement to the cavalry in this regard. As a nod to their historical naval role, and to acknowledge a desire for movement, could it somehow be granted access to naval movement bonus promos (ie GL, TF/GC, policy choice, etc.)? Overall though, unless I'm really confusing how all these movement issues combine together, I think w/ 4 base moves it'll have plenty. In theory here we're talking about a pre-WW1 zeppelin, just based on when it appears in VP; I accept on this basis that it might move slower than a train.

I wonder if we need to actually map out how zep performs right now... my own memory is pretty foggy, and I think we're all working from past ideas and rememberings

 

[ElliotS]

What if ‘Spotters’ gave Zeps extra vision and they got +1 move base? Slower but wider view?

G

I think that's fine, but they should get 1 movement per useless promotion if possible. Trailblazing 1&2 being useless is a big problem imo.

 

[Tekamthi]

I think that's fine, but they should get 1 movement per useless promotion if possible. Trailblazing 1&2 being useless is a big problem imo.

Despite being a little unsure maybe of some zep movement mechanisms at issue here (are TB 1&2 truly useless on zep, can we call this confirmed?), one thing I am sure of that is worth noting, having experimented with this aspect in the context of building other mods, is that unitcombat_helicopter IS available but unused in existing VP, as a legacy aspect of vanilla. I share after inferring in past discussion that all devs may not be aware of this (or maybe I'm the one that's not aware of a reason it was abandonned?). Making a new unitcombat breaks many things, most noticeably animations -- but unitcombat_helicopter is built-in, and appears to work just fine in-game, at least superficially. Through this there may exist the possibility to make zep somewhat different as far as promos work (ie quoted suggestion) w/o rebuilding VP.

 

[tu_79]

its true, they're not great at sea.. but say you're facing a much larger deity-spam force... moving zeps in to support your outnumbered navy can significantly even the odds, in my experience, and their ability to retreat onto land once damaged is a very strong "naval" ability. When there's no naval threat, they can similarly back up your land units.

Are you saying your cavalry can use enemy rail, too? I may need to explore a new upgrade path if so, though I understand what you mean in friendly, at least. But the zep can cross mountains and, assuming I'm remembering correctly that it starts with ignore terrain costs, can also move well in enemy and undeveloped territory, where your cavalry might only move 2. Am I wrong in understanding that the trailblazer promos will also double its moves in some terrain? granted that this is a bit strange, it seems like it is a good complement to the cavalry in this regard. As a nod to their historical naval role, and to acknowledge a desire for movement, could it somehow be granted access to naval movement bonus promos (ie GL, TF/GC, policy choice, etc.)? Overall though, unless I'm really confusing how all these movement issues combine together, I think w/ 4 base moves it'll have plenty. In theory here we're talking about a pre-WW1 zeppelin, just based on when it appears in VP; I accept on this basis that it might move slower than a train.

I wonder if we need to actually map out how zep performs right now... my own memory is pretty foggy, and I think we're all working from past ideas and rememberings

I was talking about friendly territory. Sometimes I need to move my army to a different war front, and zeppelin is the last unit that arrives.

 

[Tekamthi]

I was talking about friendly territory. Sometimes I need to move my army to a different war front, and zeppelin is the last unit that arrives.

I understand. On a pratical level, I'm mostly concerned with zep having too many moves in combat, especially considering AI doesn't always anticipate where things are that it can't see.. and to a lesser extent the abstraction of a zeppelin somehow moving faster while hovering over railroads vs other terrain... its all the same air, right? Using roads would be better than just adding high base moves though, from a gameplay perspective. The rebase feature from other aircraft would be interesting, if only it could be uncoupled from the rest of what those units are.

The more we discuss the more I feel like this recon-combat transition era would be better served by ground based unit, in line with what the rest of the recon units are. This is where I'll probably go next on this issue when I get back to modding sometime in March.

edit:
Just ran a VP only test to confirm base stats/abilities of zep as of feb 27 vp, to clear up some confusion in this thread (mostly mine):

• base moves: 3
• roads/railroads: no effect
• base promos: spotters, treasure hunter, hovering unit embark, reconnaissance, hovering unit (for mountains), ignore terrain cost, extra sight 1, embarkation, ocean embarkation
• ocean/coast: hovers in coast, embarks in ocean (embark is 5 moves vs hover's 3.. though with end turn applied on embarking, i still like pure hover)
• sight: base is 3, AND it gets a +sight promo out-of-the box, for 4 total.. the +sight after TB2 is still available, for an easy 5 clear-tile vision at lvl 3, 6 at lvl 4. (i think this is plenty)
• trailblazer: still applies double movement in applicable terrain.. ie TB1 allows up to 6 moves in forest/jungle, TB2 is 6 moves in desert/snow for otherwise base zep... I wouldnt say this is any more useless than on any other recon unit. If we bump to 4 base moves, thats 8 moves in this terrain, in friendly/enemy/neutral.. anywhere; or zep still has min 4 moves where this terrain doesn't exist, or w/o TB. This seems a reasonable trade-off vs cavalry having movement bonus on just friendly railroads, and only 2 tile moves in some terrain. Hovering faster over trees, deserts, and snow is kinda silly, but not really any more than it is for other recons to walk twice as fast in these.

After reviewing, and trying to stick to suggestions that work for VP at this stage, I'm still on board w/ G's proposal a page or so back, maybe w/o out the extra sight: ie just change to 4 base moves. a small withdraw-before-melee might make the weak-ish CS w/ no attack-and-move a little more viable, too.

 

[pineappledan]

The more talk there is concerning this unit, the further I am convinced that zeppelin fills a valuable role as a naval spotter with some minor tweaks. Even the suggested changes others have made without naval combat in mind tilt this more towards naval.

Like Tekamthi, I likely lean harder on historical relevance than much of player base.

The unit has (3+1) vision out of the box, which is REALLY good, and fairly easy access to the +vision line. I don't think you want to increase this any more than it already is. A well-positioned, fully upgraded zepp can have 6 tile vision radius, that's almost half a continent.

Increasing base move to 4 would fit be a good fit, because it lets the unit keep up with ships, which all have 4-5 movement.

I still really like the idea of having the unit not embark in deep ocean. The anti-sub utility comes too late in the unit's life cycle for me to lose much sleep over it not being included. It would be a fantastic historical nod if the unit were able to detect invisible units, or gave a bonus vs. subs to nearby ships, but it obsoletes before the first sub in the tech line anyways.

So that's my wishlist:
- 4 movement
- Does not need to embark to enter deep ocean

Bonus wishlist:
- Add UNITAI_ASSAULT_SEA to AI types
- Add "can see invisible units" promotion

 

[Tekamthi]

So that's my wishlist:
- 4 movement
- Does not need to embark to enter deep ocean

Bonus wishlist:
- Add UNITAI_ASSAULT_SEA to AI types
- Add "can see invisible units" promotion

I generally like this list as well, of course, in particular the ocean movement.. but on that issue, I'm worried that these become polar pillage ICBMs if they get too fast, w/ tree & snow TB double moves, along with the ability to escort themselves across oceans. I've tested this a little when I was getting MB+ started and it struck me as abuseable, though I never played a full game before disabling zep pillaging. Also, there is at least some sort of historical polar connection to maybe justify an advantage in these regions: wiki says an airship was the first to voyage to the north pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norge_(airship)

 

[Rekk]

I think removing its ability to pillage would be fine.

 

[Moi Magnus]

If the problem is mouvement in ennemy territory, we can just add to them the promotion "mouvement halved in ennemy territory", which has the advantage of already existing (siege units)

 

[Tekamthi]

I think removing its ability to pillage would be fine.

I agree, in particular when we're focused on the zeppelin alone, but as others have correctly pointed out, this era of the recon line needs an able pillager as it transitions from traditional recon to combat recon. This is where my brain can't get over the idea of making zep something else outside of the recon line, but that won't work for VP itself at this stage.

I've referred back to my own modding a bunch of times now as an example; my intention with this thread, however, was to find something that worked for the core VP project. I will be doing another major revision of my mod sometime in March (probably mid- or late-march), so for anyone that wants more drastic zep changes, I invite you to discuss in that thread. I could always break the zep piece off into its own standalone component, if thats more interesting to people. Somehow my memory was not so good when I started discussing here, but as I've looked back on my sql, I've already adopted the no-pillage/naval/anti-sub/ocean-going hybrid zeppelin over there. I'll look at building this into its own line of units, to make use of some artwork thats shown up on the forums elsewhere, and maybe some of the more creative ideas we've seen here.

Given that zep has to play a recon-line role in core VP, I feel that no-pillage is a very drastic change. Could a compromise be found by allowing ocean movement and/or faster movement in some way, but making pillage consume all movement? ie end turn on pillage?

 

[Stalker0]

I think removing its ability to pillage would be fine.

So we want to weaken the zep now?

I’d be fine with a movement and sight increase, I think that deals with the majority of the complaint. But I still think we aren’t going to go far with the unit...it’s just a role that’s not really needed in the game st thst point in time.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Zeppelin's ability to pillage represents the ability to drop bombs/mines on enemy farms, forests etc.

 

[Rekk]

Zeppelin's ability to pillage represents the ability to drop bombs/mines on enemy farms, forests etc.

Given that pillaging gives you gold, it's more like people are dropping down from the zeppelin, stealing resources, then climbing back up to the zeppelin with those resources in tow.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Pillaging gives you very little gold in VP, mostly it's about destroying the enemy's infrastructure.

 

[ElliotS]

Pillaging gives you very little gold in VP, mostly it's about destroying the enemy's infrastructure.

Well, very little late game. Early game pillaging can be huge, and mid-game it's not insubstantial.

 

[Gazebo]

I think an extra move is fine, and is all the zep really needs from a 'don't break the new code' rule perspective.

G

 

[Rekk]

I think an extra move is fine, and is all the zep really needs from a 'don't break the new code' rule perspective.

G

Aw, I was absolutely inspired to see them not embark in Ocean and not break, given what Tekamthi was able to show.

 

[Edaka]

@Tekamthi, would you mind sharing the code bit of non-embarking zeppelins? I'd love to try it out seeing as you seemingly have it figured out, and I don't want to get bogged down in those unit promotions.

 

[Tekamthi]

@Tekamthi, would you mind sharing the code bit of non-embarking zeppelins? I'd love to try it out seeing as you seemingly have it figured out, and I don't want to get bogged down in those unit promotions.

Check #27, here. I think this is everything that you would need (w/ some small extras) if you wanted to isolate just that change.

I just uploaded a new rev of MB+, w/o any new zep stuff yet (ie some of the more drastic changes I suggested in this thread), but hover-over-ocean is working there. If I missed any relevant bit of code in #27, then you could find it in the main .sql of my mod somewhere. Things are mostly well commented.

 

[Edaka]

Check #27, here. I think this is everything that you would need (w/ some small extras) if you wanted to isolate just that change.

I just uploaded a new rev of MB+, w/o any new zep stuff yet (ie some of the more drastic changes I suggested in this thread), but hover-over-ocean is working there. If I missed any relevant bit of code in #27, then you could find it in the main .sql of my mod somewhere. Things are mostly well commented.

Thanks, I'll check it out later!