Brave new World's New Civilizations - REVISED AGAIN!

[alpha2117]

Indonesia is certainly the most neglected big power both in modern day and historically. It doesn't bother me so much as it surprises me that a nation of their prowess is neglected as much as they are. But if you look at how things are shaping with (1) ASEAN's potential playing a massive role and (2) globalization really advertising Indonesia on a noticeable + significant level more and more each year, you could argue that in 25-30 years time history will be "re-written."

Nevertheless, I'm trying to wrap my head around why that is. I think a big part of it is that they have always been really friendly with people. I mean, there has been A LOT of violence but Indonesia typically shies away from global events - or they have historically withstood them with little fuss. I'm not entirely certain but part of it could also be the "islander" culture where Indonesians are generally very happy where they are - colonial and wartime history created strong historical ties with the Dutch but that's about it - and thus have no reason to mingle in mass numbers overseas.

Locality has a lot to do with it. It's very hard to invade from one small landmass to another unless you are significantly technologically superior (and even then it's more difficult than normal) so it encouraged a different kind of diplomacy and empire building than somewhere like Europe did. Trade & Mergers and Splits rather than conquest are the drivers that tend to be at play in the history of the region. It's led the Indonesian area to be fairly much pacifists rather than warmongering.

They have an interesting relationship with Australia - they are the two main players in local affairs but their obvious cultural differences often lead to some strange interactions that don't always make sense to people from outside the area (or each other). The chances of either ever going to war with the other is practically zero as neither is aggressive by nature. If the US declared war on Indonesia that might change but frankly that's about as likely as me beating Brad Pitt in a list of the worlds most beautiful people at this point.

 

[Stellarnight]

I kind of get you. Indonesia's never been a huge ally or adversary of the West, so there's no real stereotype of them. They don't fit easily into the Buddhist-East Asian, Hindu-South Asian or Arab-Muslim categories that have been broadcast. No mass emigration of Indonesians to America, either.

As a person from Singapore - a fellow nation in island Southeast Asia - I'm actually really thrilled that so many Civ Fanatics are finally paying Indonesia the attention it deserves in history. And hell, Singapore was a colony of the Majapahit, so it's best shot of going in as part of an empire.

Hey shoutout from a fellow Singaporean! I do want Indonesia in, if so just purely for the fact that it might entice my Indonesian friends to pick up Civ V. I dont really know that much about about Indonesia other than the fact that our annual haze pandemic is usually caused by forest burning in Indonesia so their inclusion would be a good chance for me to interact with their history on a deeper level.

And unfortunately, the game market in Singapore and Malaysia at least, seems to be dominated by games like Dota 2, shooters, Starcraft and Fifa. It is not really dominated by "Japanese" games.

Instead of being linked to pacifism, Hitler has the notorious tag of being "that guy" in the hitler parody videos. Instead of being seen as a peaceful dude, he is just seen as a bumbling old fool who has anger management issues

 

[spacedinosaur]

Locality has a lot to do with it. It's very hard to invade from one small landmass to another unless you are significantly technologically superior (and even then it's more difficult than normal) so it encouraged a different kind of diplomacy and empire building than somewhere like Europe did. Trade & Mergers and Splits rather than conquest are the drivers that tend to be at play in the history of the region. It's led the Indonesian area to be fairly much pacifists rather than warmongering.

They have an interesting relationship with Australia - they are the two main players in local affairs but their obvious cultural differences often lead to some strange interactions that don't always make sense to people from outside the area (or each other). The chances of either ever going to war with the other is practically zero as neither is aggressive by nature. If the US declared war on Indonesia that might change but frankly that's about as likely as me beating Brad Pitt in a list of the worlds most beautiful people at this point.

From what I know about Indonesia are a few things: they became a unified nation only after WWII. While the capability to move between islands has been available from an early date, the cultures between the islands are very distinct and diverse. From what I can tell, they seem to be similar to modern African nations in the sense that post-colonial territories provided them independence, but some enemy tribes found themselves in the same nation (i.e. Nigeria). Because of this, it would be difficult to come up with an Indonesian identity due to the historical diversity between the islands.

People knock Cuba as a possibility because its post-colonial history is only about 120 years old, and it's twice as old as Indonesia. The only thing Indonesia has going for it is that it was a trade hot spot, and trade seems to be a big thing with this game. While it may cover a lot of territory with a very large population, I honestly see Vietnam before Indonesia. At least they have a global identity.

 

[alpha2117]

From what I know about Indonesia are a few things: they became a unified nation only after WWII. While the capability to move between islands has been available from an early date, the cultures between the islands are very distinct and diverse. From what I can tell, they seem to be similar to modern African nations in the sense that post-colonial territories provided them independence, but some enemy tribes found themselves in the same nation (i.e. Nigeria). Because of this, it would be difficult to come up with an Indonesian identity due to the historical diversity between the islands.

People knock Cuba as a possibility because its post-colonial history is only about 120 years old, and it's twice as old as Indonesia. The only thing Indonesia has going for it is that it was a trade hot spot, and trade seems to be a big thing with this game. While it may cover a lot of territory with a very large population, I honestly see Vietnam before Indonesia. At least they have a global identity.

Modern Indonesia inded became reunified relatively recently but historically civs like Majapahit controlled that whole area. Many of the islands have distinct cultural elements. Majaphait/Indonesia has a much much longer cultural heritage than Cuba. Indonesia has a global identity and they are g20 whilst Vietnam isn't anywhere near that level economically. Vietnam is more well known to you largely due to a war than anything else.

Cuba's issues are multiple but largely - their iconic leader choice is still alive, they are a smallish island nation (made up of a few islands) that has never expanded, their biggest claim to fame is a small window of time where the Cuban Missile crisis threatened to end the world and the Bay of Pigs left America with a bloody nose. A Cuban based scenario might be fun but as a full civ it's not an obvious choice as long as Castro is alive. After his death they have an iconic leader and at that point they are a much better chance. It's a bit like South Africa in that their leader choice is obvious but since they dont choose living people not practical at this point (hopefully in South Africa's case especially not for a long time). Somewhere down the track we will get Cuba purely because people will want to have Castro but I dont see it as being something that will happen in the immediate future.

 

[God of Kings]

Havana would make a good city-state.

Canada has a much greater chance of becoming a civ than Cuba.

 

[Pikachao]

Havana would make a good city-state.

Canada has a much greater chance of becoming a civ than Cuba.

well, technically no, with quebec confirmed as a CS and all

 

[Guandao]

I rather have the Taino over Cuba as a civ.

 

[Loaf Warden]

well, technically no, with quebec confirmed as a CS and all

Canada has a better chance in general. It's not in BNW, but between Canada and Cuba, Canada is the more likely to get in at some later time. Its history is longer, its world significance is greater (Missile Crisis notwithstanding), it has more iconic leaders to choose from who are not still living people (Macdonald, King, and Trudeau all spring immediately to mind), and--not that this has stopped them before--it would be a lot less gimmicky.

 

[alpha2117]

Canada has a better chance in general. It's not in BNW, but between Canada and Cuba, Canada is the more likely to get in at some later time. Its history is longer, its world significance is greater (Missile Crisis notwithstanding), it has more iconic leaders to choose from who are not still living people (Macdonald, King, and Trudeau all spring immediately to mind), and--not that this has stopped them before--it would be a lot less gimmicky.

I'm pretty sure post Castro's death we will get a Cuban civ though - they love iconic leaders if they can and he's iconic.

 

[ImperialChaos]

I would like to see a Canadian civ. Like the Inuit, it could improve the tundra or ice terrain which is nothing but useless parts of the map so far.

 

[Xen]

Tundra should be useless - it's settlement should be saved as a last resort to get some sort of an edge on your competition (like a source of oil or somthing) and not just another form of grassland.

Makes things more interesting that way.

 

[seancolorado]

From what I know about Indonesia are a few things: they became a unified nation only after WWII. While the capability to move between islands has been available from an early date, the cultures between the islands are very distinct and diverse. From what I can tell, they seem to be similar to modern African nations in the sense that post-colonial territories provided them independence, but some enemy tribes found themselves in the same nation (i.e. Nigeria). Because of this, it would be difficult to come up with an Indonesian identity due to the historical diversity between the islands.

People knock Cuba as a possibility because its post-colonial history is only about 120 years old, and it's twice as old as Indonesia. The only thing Indonesia has going for it is that it was a trade hot spot, and trade seems to be a big thing with this game. While it may cover a lot of territory with a very large population, I honestly see Vietnam before Indonesia. At least they have a global identity.

Don't really know what to say. You are making sweeping generalizations about the nation which aren't even true to begin with. (E.g. their history is nothing at all like African states such as Nigeria)

There is a distinct "Indonesian" identity that goes back to the 1st Century. They evolved heavily since then from ancient groups of people to kingdoms to now modern day Indonesia but make no mistake: there has always been an "Indonesia." They were never a unified political state by modern standards until recently but that means little beyond textbook definitions when you put a magnifying glass to their history. Indonesia has much more going for it other than being a trade hot spot - they have been a consistent cultural and religious force. Such contributions can be seen throughout history, but since you seem to care more about modern influences I can provide them as well: if you go to Africa today for example you will see batik playing a major role in art and fashion which has galvanized an entirely new sub-culture. For religion, Indonesia is the largest Muslim country as well as Muslim-majority democracy. In more facets than one this has provided a alternative bridge to the rest of the Muslim world for the Western world. In fact, so much so that it has even strengthened Indonesia's relations with the US and Australia to the point where they are now crucial partners in the global economy and for ASEAN. (Of course, there are additional factors which helped strengthen this relationship)

At least Vietnam has a global identity, you say? I think you mean, at least the Western world (in large part thanks to the Vietnam War) has painted a caricature which makes stereotyping them a lot easier than stereotyping Indonesia.

 

[seancolorado]

As for Cuba, I don't know very much about them to say anything so I don't know why you compare two completely different nations on opposite sides of the world.

I guess I would find it pretty cool to have a Cuban leader but, like I said, don't know enough to know which leader I would prefer

 

[cybrxkhan]

At least Vietnam has a global identity, you say? I think you mean, at least the Western world (in large part thanks to the Vietnam War) has painted a caricature which makes stereotyping them a lot easier than stereotyping Indonesia.

This is what I worry about a potential Vietnam civ - it may very well play into the straw hat commies stereotype. Vietnam's unique in its own ways (all the SE Asian groups are unique in their own ways, but what not), and has its own history that could be easily emphasized on for an interesting, unique civ, but the devs will almost put in some of the things associated with the Vietnam War if they make Vietnam a civ no matter what. I just hope that it's just a unit (Viet Cong or something like that) rather than the majority of the civ.

 

[wigwam]

From what I know about Indonesia are a few things: they became a unified nation only after WWII. While the capability to move between islands has been available from an early date, the cultures between the islands are very distinct and diverse. From what I can tell, they seem to be similar to modern African nations in the sense that post-colonial territories provided them independence, but some enemy tribes found themselves in the same nation (i.e. Nigeria). Because of this, it would be difficult to come up with an Indonesian identity due to the historical diversity between the islands.

People knock Cuba as a possibility because its post-colonial history is only about 120 years old, and it's twice as old as Indonesia.

You know you could say the same thing about half the civs in the game, right? Egypt, India, and Poland have only become united and independent post-WWII. Korea was a Japanese colony until 1945 and still isn't united. Arabia was part of the Ottoman Empire for centuries and still isn't united (and may never be united again). India in particular and Egypt and Arabia to a lesser extent are extremely diverse areas with zillions of tribes and different religions in conflict with one another.

And yet all those nations, including Indonesia, have long histories of independence and unity and were all major world powers at one time (or several times). Cuba has never been a world power and has arguably only governed its own affairs for about twenty years in its entire history. Cuba became "independent" in 1902, but remained effectively an American colony, per the Platt Amendment, until 1934, and arguably a de facto American colony even after that until the Communist seizure of power in 1959, at which point it became a Soviet puppet.

 

[Brugarin]

INNUITS!!!!

 

[Syailendra]

From what I know about Indonesia are a few things: they became a unified nation only after WWII. While the capability to move between islands has been available from an early date, the cultures between the islands are very distinct and diverse. From what I can tell, they seem to be similar to modern African nations in the sense that post-colonial territories provided them independence, but some enemy tribes found themselves in the same nation (i.e. Nigeria). Because of this, it would be difficult to come up with an Indonesian identity due to the historical diversity between the islands.

well, then you don't know much. And i won't blame you. It's actually why this nation needs to be in civ series. It is one of ancient superpower that haven't been known yet.
Indonesia is a word founded by a dutch historian, which means indian ocean archipelago, the word indonesia is exist not more than 400 years.
BUT, the history of the region is extended far far beyond that back to the 8th century when the region is firstly 'unified' under the srivijaya empire, which is the trade empire everyone is recalling. Later the region is reunified under majapahit which extend farther than modern indonesia.
FYI the first and second president of modern indonesia wages war to some region as east timor, and west papua and covet them as indonesian legacy from old majapahit empire, so if you say that the border is predrawn by european colonist, thats not entirely true.

Note: if i'm not wrong, Singapore was called Tumasik (Temasek) at majapahit times, this fact is not widely known, so for you singaporean, you can expect to be double presentated by both name if majapahit made it to the expansion.

 

[spacedinosaur]

I rather have the Taino over Cuba as a civ.

My grandmother is Taino so I very much agree with you on that.

Don't really know what to say. You are making sweeping generalizations about the nation which aren't even true to begin with. (E.g. their history is nothing at all like African states such as Nigeria)... At least Vietnam has a global identity, you say? I think you mean, at least the Western world (in large part thanks to the Vietnam War) has painted a caricature which makes stereotyping them a lot easier than stereotyping Indonesia.

I know their histories are not similar. Read my entire statement and you will see I was talking about post-colonial Indonesia, not pre-European. You also have to realize that the game is marketed primarily for the Western world (hence why there are so many European civs). If you want to call it stereotyping, so be it. The whole game is a big stereotype of each civ.

You know you could say the same thing about half the civs in the game, right?

My point was actually almost exactly what you stated, I guess my words were lost somewhere.

well, then you don't know much. And i won't blame you. It's actually why this nation needs to be in civ series. It is one of ancient superpower that haven't been known yet.

I did admit that I don't know much about Indonesia, didn't I? After I posted this, I did my research on Indonesia and it is actually quite fascinating. I know I ruffled a few feathers with my comment but the point is all I knew about the country was from my Portuguese history courses at university, which pretty much only covered the colonial acquisitions. I was not implying that they don't deserve to be in the game, rather that I didn't know much about the country. Don't slam me for not knowing after I clearly stated so myself.

 

[LoneRebel]

I did admit that I don't know much about Indonesia, didn't I? After I posted this, I did my research on Indonesia and it is actually quite fascinating. I know I ruffled a few feathers with my comment but the point is all I knew about the country was from my Portuguese history courses at university, which pretty much only covered the colonial acquisitions. I was not implying that they don't deserve to be in the game, rather that I didn't know much about the country. Don't slam me for not knowing after I clearly stated so myself.

Oh, I see. I recall saying in another thread that the main difference between Cuba and other postcolonial countries that would lessen Cuba's chances of getting in is that these other postcolonial countries (Brazil, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc.) have at least some, maybe even a lot, of their precolonial culture remaining. In Cuba, however, the native population was almost entirely wiped out within a century of the Spaniards' arrival. As far as I am aware, due to this modern-day Cuba has very little that is descended from the culture of the precolonial inhabitants of that island. It is a younger country than Indonesia in that sense.

 

[polipron]

Is there a more up-to-date poll about potentional new civs?