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Please see my quote above about combustion. It was simply a placeholder because I needed to select something. It was my intent to let the tech path be debated.
RR6 - I am Legend
- Thread starter r_rolo1
- Start date
Please see my quote above about combustion. It was simply a placeholder because I needed to select something. It was my intent to let the tech path be debated.
Thy_Spellcraft
King
I'm sorry for the delay, but didn't find the time to play yesterday.. Will play today evening!
Thy_Spellcraft
King
OK, played my set so far.. Not that eventful but I'm sure, it will become REALLY hard to get this variant finished. The complete report will get added tomorrow but just for notice: during my set I lost about 8(!!!!) spys while waiting in Memphis for the 50% discount and the only one who made it there got lost as well without spreading a single cultural point..
So I'd purpose to count the lost spys as well!
So I'd purpose to count the lost spys as well!
r_rolo1
King of myself
Just by acident ... do Rammy has a sec bureau there ? 
Thy_Spellcraft
King
Just by acident ... do Rammy has a sec bureau there ?
Yes he has!
But here's the report:
IT:
As purposed by rolo my first action was to bribe Boudi to peace once again:
Spoiler :
And as there's no possebility to sell communism I decided to spend one or two turns into physics to go straight towards artillery. And while MM I saw this deal:
Spoiler :
1844:
After two turns of physics Sury was willing to take this deal:
Spoiler :
And on we go with artillery.
And here's another ressource deal I found somehow tempting:
Spoiler :
1846:
We got a bad event:
Spoiler :
1848:
Another EP-spender go founded:
Spoiler :
I took this location, as it provides a few more minable hills and as whale get obsoleted through combustion the additional distance to the whale doesn't matters at all.
1854:
And again Boudi is aiing for someone. She went back into WHEOOHRN mode. But as there's no stack around I didn't close borders but next player should keep an eye on this!!!
1856:
Ari is in and on we go with the combustion.
1858:
The first attempt to spread some culture. As I already sai he failed..
And that's so far.. There's still the GP south of Uruk we didn't decide what to do with. But nonetheless I'd really like to know whether ther's another possebility to decrease our spylosses..
r_rolo1
King of myself
I guess this only shows that you are not so used to spy businesses, Thy. The first thing to do in a target city for spy stuff is to sabotage the Sec Bureau there if there is oneSecurity Bureau
+8
+50% defense against espionage
Helps thwart rival spies
Can turn 2 citizens into spy
I took this knowlegde for granted, so I didn't even bothered to say anything... Mea culpaAnyway, i still have to look at the save, but , as I'm up, I GOT IT.
Am I being skipped for any particular reason, other than proven incompetence?
Thy_Spellcraft
King
I guess this only shows that you are not so used to spy businesses, Thy. The first thing to do in a target city for spy stuff is to sabotage the Sec Bureau there if there is one
Anyway, i still have to look at the save, but , as I'm up, I GOT IT.
Hmm ok.. You're right! I'm truly not used to spy stuff as I never REALLY used it before (or the game was already won before the AI got to Sec Bureaus).. Ididn't even know, that you can choose the building to sabotage!!
So it's my fault! I'm deeply sorry for my failing on that..
r_rolo1
King of myself
I forgot the roster 
Shame on me again ... and a big sorry to nocho
Roster:
r_rolo1 -on deck
Ad Hoc
LKendter
GreyFox - somewhere on planet earth
Thy_Spellcraft -just played
nocho - UP
Shame on me again ... and a big sorry to nocho Roster:
r_rolo1 -on deck
Ad Hoc
LKendter
GreyFox - somewhere on planet earth
Thy_Spellcraft -just played
nocho - UP
Well, I won't be playing before Thursday or Friday so if you're very eager you can take it now anyway.
rolo, since you're the spy expert (general expert, code expert, loneliness expert, etc
) a small question about this waiting bonus. The game states that it reduces the COST of the mission. Is it indeed only the cost in EP that is reduced or does waiting also increase the success percentage? If the success percentage is not altered by waiting I guess taking down that sec bureau asap would be wise, even if we don't have the full waiting bonus yet... Losing a bunch of spies for a mere EP discount doesn't sound like a good trade-off.
In any case, do you have a clue how the success percentage is calculated and how you can influence it? I know I'm pretty clueless about the percentage... I remember a game where a spy with 50% discount failed at 80% or so, but a second spy on the same turn with the same misson at 40% discount had a 98% chance. Does failing with one spy increase the odds of a next spy?
rolo, since you're the spy expert (general expert, code expert, loneliness expert, etc
) a small question about this waiting bonus. The game states that it reduces the COST of the mission. Is it indeed only the cost in EP that is reduced or does waiting also increase the success percentage? If the success percentage is not altered by waiting I guess taking down that sec bureau asap would be wise, even if we don't have the full waiting bonus yet... Losing a bunch of spies for a mere EP discount doesn't sound like a good trade-off.In any case, do you have a clue how the success percentage is calculated and how you can influence it? I know I'm pretty clueless about the percentage... I remember a game where a spy with 50% discount failed at 80% or so, but a second spy on the same turn with the same misson at 40% discount had a 98% chance. Does failing with one spy increase the odds of a next spy?
r_rolo1
King of myself
First, I'm not by far a code expertrolo, since you're the spy expert (general expert, code expert, loneliness expert, etc
In any case, do you have a clue how the success percentage is calculated and how you can influence it? I know I'm pretty clueless about the percentage... I remember a game where a spy with 50% discount failed at 80% or so, but a second spy on the same turn with the same misson at 40% discount had a 98% chance. Does failing with one spy increase the odds of a next spy?
I simply know some bits ... Well, the waiting does not increase the odds of a spy sucess, it only reduces the ammount of EP needed to perform the mission as you stated. So, yes, take the thing out without waiting
About the calc of the odds... well, I don't know much, I reckon. I know the ratio between the EP produced by the performer and the target of the mission enter, but besides that.... well, I'm pretty sure that losing spies does not make the next one have bigger odds, but i can't give full assurance in that.
spy lurker info
Odds to get caught depend on the total spy points generated as base (by both parties) and the difficulty of the mission performed.
If security bureau/spy is present, if the mission is run on the 1st turn/counter espionage mission run against and so.
There is a very good info on spy: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=247719
below is the function that returns the base odds to succeed, if interested in the code.
Actually I could not find any reference that failing mission increases the odds of the next, although I am perfectly sure I have seen in the interface. Unless proven right, I'd assume it a bug.
Odds to get caught depend on the total spy points generated as base (by both parties) and the difficulty of the mission performed.
If security bureau/spy is present, if the mission is run on the 1st turn/counter espionage mission run against and so.
There is a very good info on spy: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=247719
below is the function that returns the base odds to succeed, if interested in the code.
Spoiler :
Actually I could not find any reference that failing mission increases the odds of the next, although I am perfectly sure I have seen in the interface. Unless proven right, I'd assume it a bug.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Thanks for the code, bestsss. And I agree, the part of the bonus after failed missions is somewhat strange...
T300 (inherited) We try to sabotage the security bureau in Memphis. 1st spy fails, 2nd succeeds. Some minor mm.
T301 A dude shows up with the most cultured civs. 1st Bismarck. Well, ok. 2nd Boudi! Say WHAT? The queen of bloodthirst is more cultured then the cultural parasites from Sumeria? We're 3rd. Ramses 4th. Mmm. 
T302 Combustion is in. Not sure if we agreed on a tech path, but I choose the versatile Electricity next. Not known to anyone yet.
T303 Apostolic Palace holds an election. We can choose between Boobs and our weasely vassal Surya. We prefer our vassal.
We spread 217 culture in Memphis.
We got a great spy! After some thought I decide for a Scotland Yard in Lagash, the highest EP yielding city without one. If we play at least 100 turns more then it's better than infiltration.
T304 Guess who is the pope.
T305 Nothing worth mentioning.
T306 We spread 234 culture in Memphis, while another attempt fails.
T307 We spread 248 culture in Memphis. Notice Ram has the security bureau online again, it's immediately sabbotaged.
T308 Electricity is in, select Industrialism as placeholder.
We spread 263 culture in Memphis.
We spread 276 culture in Memphis, but the spy is caught afterwards.
We now have cultural presence in the Egyptian capital!
And: Boudi just declared on Bismarck!
I've been building some military for the event of a DoW by Boudi. Also drafted a bit in the globe city. Set Eridu building artillery, it's the HE city after all. Now that Boudi chose another target it could be full spy business again.
Quite some spies accumulated in Memphis, waiting for their 50% discount. Also sent the first few to Thebes.
Workers have been railroading tiles that don't need railroads... This last turn I started accumulating them in the capital.
I used the loose bud missionary to spread culture in our new icey dwelling up north. Then I got nervous when Boudi got pope so I build a new one and put him on the caravel which is in Egyptian borders, so it can be gifted. However, Boudi just declared on Bismarck, so I doubt she'll call for a crusade against Ramses. I'd expect an AP vote very soon by the way, she got elected 4 turns ago, so it might be next interturn (?).
rolo is UP. Now. Really!
T301 A dude shows up with the most cultured civs. 1st Bismarck. Well, ok. 2nd Boudi! Say WHAT?
The queen of bloodthirst is more cultured then the cultural parasites from Sumeria? We're 3rd. Ramses 4th. Mmm. T302 Combustion is in. Not sure if we agreed on a tech path, but I choose the versatile Electricity next. Not known to anyone yet.
T303 Apostolic Palace holds an election. We can choose between Boobs and our weasely vassal Surya. We prefer our vassal.
We spread 217 culture in Memphis.
We got a great spy! After some thought I decide for a Scotland Yard in Lagash, the highest EP yielding city without one. If we play at least 100 turns more then it's better than infiltration.
T304 Guess who is the pope.
Spoiler :
T305 Nothing worth mentioning.
T306 We spread 234 culture in Memphis, while another attempt fails.
T307 We spread 248 culture in Memphis. Notice Ram has the security bureau online again, it's immediately sabbotaged.
T308 Electricity is in, select Industrialism as placeholder.
We spread 263 culture in Memphis.
We spread 276 culture in Memphis, but the spy is caught afterwards.
We now have cultural presence in the Egyptian capital!
And: Boudi just declared on Bismarck!
I've been building some military for the event of a DoW by Boudi. Also drafted a bit in the globe city. Set Eridu building artillery, it's the HE city after all. Now that Boudi chose another target it could be full spy business again.Quite some spies accumulated in Memphis, waiting for their 50% discount. Also sent the first few to Thebes.
Workers have been railroading tiles that don't need railroads... This last turn I started accumulating them in the capital.
I used the loose bud missionary to spread culture in our new icey dwelling up north. Then I got nervous when Boudi got pope so I build a new one and put him on the caravel which is in Egyptian borders, so it can be gifted. However, Boudi just declared on Bismarck, so I doubt she'll call for a crusade against Ramses. I'd expect an AP vote very soon by the way, she got elected 4 turns ago, so it might be next interturn (?).
rolo is UP. Now. Really!
r_rolo1
King of myself
Ok, now we have 1238
spreaded in Menphis .... good job. Now we only need more 49000 top there and 50000 in other two cities :/Now miss Boudi is Pope ( feminin of Pope is Pope
Ok, you could use Priestess, but that is the feminin of Priest ... Ok, can we call her "AP seat owner" ? ) and is warring Biz again... with some luck she will call the war out Good grief, that gal is quite war-friendly ....More comments after seeing save. But GOT IT ( really , really got it
). I guess the order of works should be : build spies, bomb culture, defend rammy until we eat him 
Important lurker comment!
A female pope is called pope in Babylon 5, so it must be right to call it that!
Rumor has it the Vatican actually got their knickers in a knot due to that last word in that quote
Now miss Boudi is Pope ( feminin of Pope is Pope
A female pope is called pope in Babylon 5, so it must be right to call it that!
M. Garibaldi said:
Rumor has it the Vatican actually got their knickers in a knot due to that last word in that quote
r_rolo1
King of myself
Ok, I loooked at the save and we have a serious issue in hands, that is the fact we don't have OB with Rammy... Ok things are controlable now, but what will be of him when we have more culture in his cities than he has? Ok he has enough military to hold 1 legendary city from rebelling, but not 3 ... so , without OB, how the hell we are going to put our troops there to stop the rebellion ? That is a serious issue and it will not go better with all the spy action we are going to make on him.
Other note: Biz has a city that is 85 turns away from legendary. I don't expect that this holds with the war, but if Biz caps to Boudi with those cities untouched we can be stuck in a bad place... Same when the UN rolls in, as it will surely given that we have 2 Ind civs in game.
BTW , by having the double of Rammy power , we are assured that he will not DOW us . First time for a big while I see power deterrence actually working in Civ IV
Ok, now start the gripes...
First, I see a spy walking to the Egyptian cap. That is a bad idea since the city can't be reached in turn from our border, while we have a target that is ( Memphis ). Anyway, for sake of concentration , I expect that all the players concentrate their spy actions on one city at the time, even if to maximize the sabotage of the Sec Bureaus.
Second, we have a shrine in hands and we are not making it work in our benefit. The Tao holy city needs a grocer and a bank ( better said, we need more banks for the WS ) and to boot , our only tao monastery is in the cap, that probably has better things to do besides missionaries ....
Third, and more important, we need more ( no, it is not "workers" ) spies ! Our culture spread is not being limited by the EP prod nowadays, but by the lack of suficient spies 
Ok, they die like flies , but they should be done like mosquitoes in a warm wetland born : in big numbers. Ideally, with the EP/turn we have now ( that only will get bigger ) and , we should be banging atleast 1000 per turn , and with the current culture per mission ( ok, this one will get bigger as well ) it means close of 4 sucessful mission per turn. Multiply this by 7 ( to cover spies in rest, Sec bureau sabotage, spies en route and spies detected before doing the mission ) and this means we need a force of 28-30 spies, and this before considering the chances of sucess in the missions. Currently we have 15 ... P.S actually the next spread mission will put more than 290 in Memphis ( that gives a 290/400 = 0,725 /
ratio ATM ) , making my numbers above to be a little bloated, but we still need atleast 10 more spies to have a margin of confort.
Boudi power is scary... I seriously hope we will not need to resort to the nuke option to win this game, but I would not be surprised if we needed to go that way.
BTW, how about gifting Electricity to Rammy in hopes of him building the Broadway? given that he is feeling intense cultural pressure ( I wonder why ... ), I guess he would definitely try it...
Ok, will wait for more input until atleast tomorrow. And hopefully we will not get a award for the "more pissed neighbour without nuke action" for so much caught spies :/
That is a serious issue and it will not go better with all the spy action we are going to make on him.Other note: Biz has a city that is 85 turns away from legendary. I don't expect that this holds with the war, but if Biz caps to Boudi with those cities untouched we can be stuck in a bad place... Same when the UN rolls in, as it will surely given that we have 2 Ind civs in game.
BTW , by having the double of Rammy power , we are assured that he will not DOW us . First time for a big while I see power deterrence actually working in Civ IV
Ok, now start the gripes...
First, I see a spy walking to the Egyptian cap. That is a bad idea since the city can't be reached in turn from our border, while we have a target that is ( Memphis ). Anyway, for sake of concentration , I expect that all the players concentrate their spy actions on one city at the time, even if to maximize the sabotage of the Sec Bureaus.
Second, we have a shrine in hands and we are not making it work in our benefit. The Tao holy city needs a grocer and a bank ( better said, we need more banks for the WS ) and to boot , our only tao monastery is in the cap, that probably has better things to do besides missionaries ....
Third, and more important, we need more ( no, it is not "workers"
) spies ! Our culture spread is not being limited by the EP prod nowadays, but by the lack of suficient spies Ok, they die like flies , but they should be done like mosquitoes in a warm wetland born : in big numbers. Ideally, with the EP/turn we have now ( that only will get bigger ) and , we should be banging atleast 1000 per turn , and with the current culture per mission ( ok, this one will get bigger as well ) it means close of 4 sucessful mission per turn. Multiply this by 7 ( to cover spies in rest, Sec bureau sabotage, spies en route and spies detected before doing the mission ) and this means we need a force of 28-30 spies, and this before considering the chances of sucess in the missions. Currently we have 15 ... P.S actually the next spread mission will put more than 290 in Memphis ( that gives a 290/400 = 0,725 / ratio ATM ) , making my numbers above to be a little bloated, but we still need atleast 10 more spies to have a margin of confort.Boudi power is scary... I seriously hope we will not need to resort to the nuke option to win this game, but I would not be surprised if we needed to go that way.
BTW, how about gifting Electricity to Rammy in hopes of him building the Broadway? given that he is feeling intense cultural pressure ( I wonder why ... ), I guess he would definitely try it...
Ok, will wait for more input until atleast tomorrow. And hopefully we will not get a award for the "more pissed neighbour without nuke action" for so much caught spies :/
r_rolo1
King of myself
True, you can use your own troops to stop a rebelion of a city that would flip to you, there is no question there. The issue is how to get a furious AI to open borders without being forced via AP/UNr_rolo1, declare war on rammy
the garrison effect doubles, swarm him w/ tanks/etc, but dont attack.
on a side note, i will have to check but i think if you have open borders w/ him, your own troops work as garrison.
And things will not get better with all the spy work we still have to do About making a fake war with rammy ... that is a possiblitity indeed. But that could have diplo side effects I prefer to keep at bay.
>>The issue is how to get a furious AI to open borders without being forced via AP/UN
Share a war!
Sharing a war disregards any other 'differences' and unless in mutual war, the AIs will open the borders (in the latter case the borders are also 'open', w/o road bonus, though)
Share a war!
Sharing a war disregards any other 'differences' and unless in mutual war, the AIs will open the borders (in the latter case the borders are also 'open', w/o road bonus, though)
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