Africa

[Henri Christophe]

Make this threat to we speak about options to African civ we miss in this game.
I don't choice leaders because I don't know name for all civs
But some civs I would pick the following leaders:

Dahomey - Ghezo

Ghezo transform the Dahomey kingdoom in an Empire when conquer the city of Ketu, of Yoruba people. It was the biggest conquest in TransAtlantic Slavery history. Dahomey was called by Europeans as the Slavery Coast and I think there is possible to Dahomey have the Unique Ability to sell population of their cities (conquered or not), the population don't lose their original faith when was sold. This mechanic wants to reproduce how African religions arrive in Americas.

Oyo - Shango

Shango was the third king of Oyo, but is praised as a God in americas, the Thunder god. It is well know in countries as Brazil or Cuba where had a big Yoruba migration during the Slavery trade.

Ashante - Osei Tutu I

Osei Tutu I was the founder of Ashante kingdom, he received from the Sky the royal throne and it is a semi-mythical king. Nowadays Ashante king is Osei Tutu II.

Ethiopia - Iyasu

I would like to see an Ethiopia lead by someone older than Manelik II or Haile Selassie, both are good choices too, but Ethiopia have so many leaders who can be very well explored in a game.

Egypt - Piye

Is very questionable if Egyptians as Ramses II was black or white, so I think the best option to avoid controversia is choice someone very well documented was black, that's man is Piye. Who can also be an alternative leader of Nubia.

Mali - mansa abubakari ii

Just to change a little, Mali in Civ 7 can be lead by the brother of Mansa Musa. Not the richest man on the world, as his brother. But Abubaraki II made an amazing voyage to the West to discover new lands. It's impossible to know what happens with this voyage.

Angola - Queen Ana Ginga

I know she was the Queen of Matamba and Ndongo. But Angola is a better name for the Civ if appears in Civ 7.

Botswana - Seretse Khama

The last king of Botswana was also the country first president, the most smooth transition of Monarchy to Republic you ever see. Botswana also have good indices of human development of Africa, they deserve to be a civ.

Republic Center African - Jean Bedel Bokassa

Nothing better than a self-proclaimed Emperor, the world is missing this kind of dudes. Civilization 7 can help and do him leading his Central African Empire.

South Africa - Nelson Mandela

The first black president of South Africa and the biggest name in the fight against the Apartheid should be an amazing option of post colonial civs.

Zulu - Cetshwayo

Just to change a little about Shaka. Cetswayo was the last king of the Zulu Empire.


The other nations I don't have suggestion of leaders, I hope the community can help me to find other leaders and discuss about the leaders I said above.

 

[FishFishFish]

My picks:

Egypt - I think a middle Kingdom pharaoh would be interesting.

Ethiopia - Give us an Aksumite King like Ezana or Kaleb for once! No longer shall Ethiopia suffer the burden of being the modern African civ.

Kongo - Tbh I just picked them because of TSL reasons.

Madagascar under Radama I - They shall be the new representative for a modernizing African nation. I just hope they don't pick Ranavalona I, who killed 50% of her population instead.

Mali - An Islamic empire on the Niger river is necessary for me.

Morocco - An Islamic empire in the Maghreb is also necessary for me.

Nri/Igbo - I would like to see a civ from the Gulf of Guinea. The Nri were pacifists who forbid slavery and accepted escaped slaves so I chose them.

Nubia - This time give us a pharaoh from the 25th dynasty of Egypt.

Swahili - Pick a Kilwa Sultan and give them bonuses for coastal trade routes.

Zimbabwe - Since we don't know enough about Great Zimbabwe, I suggest we pick a Rozvi emperor like Changamire Dombo. Changamire Dombo would fill Shaka's war mongering niche pretty well.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Egypt- is obvious. I'd like Akhenaten as leader.
Ethiopia- Should keep on appearing. Would like an Axum era leader with Ezana.
Mali- I prefer it over Songhai to keep representing West Africa with Mansa Musa.
Zulu- yeah they along with Shaka are a staple and I don't mind.
Angola. Ana Nzinga would be cool this time around.
Benin-The Kingdom that was located in present day Nigeria, not the modern day country, with Queen Idia as leader.
Nubia- Wouldn't mind Nubia appearing again.

Honorable mention to Berbers/Numidia for North Africa though as another new civ I'd want but don't see it as an option.
:
Either the Swahili or Madagascar for East Africa and I don't have a strong preference for either one.

 

[Patine]

Botswana - Seretse Khama

The last king of Botswana was also the country first president, the most smooth transition of Monarchy to Republic you ever see. Botswana also have good indices of human development of Africa, they deserve to be a civ..

Colonial protectorate to Republic, in truth, unfortunately.

 

[Patine]

While Uganda is there, that brings Idi Amin Dada, institutional corruption, absolutely atrocious and monstrous bands of guerillas (not the gorillas, who also live on the mountain fringes of the country), and a failed government system from start to finish to mind. The Kingdom of Buganda, however, with one of three possible distinct Kabakas as leader would be a far preferable to the modern teetering Republic.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Zimbabwe - Since we don't know enough about Great Zimbabwe, I suggest we pick a Rozvi emperor like Changamire Dombo. Changamire Dombo would fill Shaka's war mongering niche pretty well.

Was my biggest concern about Zimbabwe, who should lead it?
I never heard before about this Rozvi empire and his leader. Doing a quick search on WIkipedia I found.

Names and dates taken from John Stewart's African States and Rulers (1989).[8]

1. Changamire I (c. 1480-1494)
2. Changamire II (1494-1530)
3. Changamire Tumbare (1530-c.1660)
4. Changamire Dombo (c.1660-1695)
5. Changamire Zharare (c.1695-c.1700)
6. Changamire Negamo (c.1700-1710)
7. Chirisamuru (c. 1712-1788)
8. Changamire Dhafa(c.1790-1824)
9. Changamire Baswi (c.1825)
10. Changamire Chirisamuru II (c.1828-1831)
11. Changamire Tohwechipi Zharare (1831-1866)

While Uganda is there, that brings Idi Amin Dada, institutional corruption, absolutely atrocious and monstrous bands of guerillas (not the gorillas, who also live on the mountain fringes of the country), and a failed government system from start to finish to mind. The Kingdom of Buganda, however, with one of three possible distinct Kabakas as leader would be a far preferable to the modern teetering Republic.

I really toutgh about Idi Amin Dada, but we already discuss about him and how bad he is as option.
I also never heard before about this Buganda kingdom, I like this option, searching about a bit in Wikipedia I found

this dude, Muanga II can leads the Buganda kingdom, he is gay.

 

[Krajzen]

I'll just comment on all options. I think the list is mostly complete regarding fully 'legit' civilizations imo. The only major ones that I sense missing are maaaybe (all quite obscure)
- Kanuri civilization: Kanem and Bornu kingdoms, mostly living in Nigeria but also in Chad and Niger (gee thanks colonial borders)
- Wolof civilization: Wolof/Jolof kingdoms, Senegal, but this one is really obscure
- Mossi civilization: Mossi kingdoms, Burkina Faso, but this one is even more obscure
- Buganda civilization: Buganda kingdom, Uganda, but good luck finding any data about it
- I suspect there may be some iron age civilizations from SE Congo and Zambia worthy of civ series, but I also suspect we have way not enough data at this point to introduce anything from here, and digging here to develop archeology will take decades...


1) Nubia, Ethiopia, Ghana, Songhai, Mali, Kongo, Angola, Zulu, Swahilli, Zimbabwe are all perfect from the get go, with all of them either already being present in games like this. Somali civilization should really be here too, really cool... Despite its miserable fate since 1960. Similar with Madagascar (noun)/Malagasy (adjective) civilization (Merina is name of only one ethnic group). Maybe I'd accept Kenya and Ghana as the only modern Subsaharan states influential and 'healthy' enough to not feel awkward in game like this.

2) In such forums, for some reason, for some (legit awesome) suggestions of Subsaharan civilizations, name of very particular state entities are used, ignoring that it is generally better idea to go for names of entire nations, cultures, civilizations stretching over history, not just the most prominent countries. European civs in games like this don't get "Prussia, Castille, Tuscany, Wessex, Suzdal" but "Germany, Spain, Italy, England and Russia".
Yoruba (civilization, people) instead of Oyo (one state)
Igbo (civilization, people) instead of Nri (one state)
Akan (civilization, people) instead of Ashanti (one state)
Fulani (civilization, people) instead of Sokoto (one state)
Edo (civilization, people) instead of Benin (one state)

3) I don't respect Dahomey as civ suggestion because a) It was very, very small entity, size of Greek, Italian or German city - states and b) It was entirely built around endemic slave wars and trade of fellow African neighbors.. Like, its entire existence was built upon the horror of Atlantic slave trade, you cannot separate it. I consider it to be an abomination because of that (similarly I am unable to respect Barbary States in Maghreb and Crimean Khanate - they were little more than vehicles powered mainly by extreme human suffering, to a degree far exceeding overall history of Greeks, Romans and most other civilizations). So basically it was a tiny city state heavily reliant on constant slavery

4) Egypt and Morocco I treat as culturally and historically Middle - Eastern, I think they don't represent black African civilizations at all (there is a reason a truckload of cultural, historical, geographical, sociological research use classification MENA: Middle - East - and - North - Africa).

5) With all respect, let's be honest. Central African Republic and Chad are both disastrous failed states, Botswana and Lesotho are tiny and hardly significant, South Africa has spent its entire history under apartheid or in the dark shadow of it (the country is not in a good shape) so let's just add Zulu, Rwanda had decades of segreation anding in one of worst genocides ever and is currently authoritarian regime that is still very poor, and Uganda has really brutal history of last decades and still ruled by a brutal dictator. And Nigeria is tearing itself apart, as its arbitrary British colonial entity that disastrously groups two religions, two geographic zones, two linguistic families, like six separate major nations and civilizations (Hausa, Fulani, Kanem, Yoruba, Igbo, Edo people) and like 100 smaller ones, slowly sliding into greater and greater chaos. The only modern African states that 'feel right' for me to be in civ series are honestly maybe Kenya and Ghana. Btw it is really absurd how the latter country just randomly took name from completely alien civilization lying in completely other part of Africa, just because it was 'first West African civilization' (and hilariously even that is already proven false).

6) There is no and there has never been such civilization, people, culture, identity or language as 'Libya, Libyan'. For 3000 years of history there have always been two separate entities, Tripolitania and Cyrenaica, always either in separate countries or in separate provinces within one country. Never ever have they been seriously united, until arbitrary artificial colony of Italian 'Libya' - even the Greek name 'Libya' (generic name for North Africans) itself IIRC was introduced in like 1934 by Mussolini regime. There are two nations here, and what happened after 2011? Country violently returning to its natural borders between two nations.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Egypt - I think a middle Kingdom pharaoh would be interesting.

4) Egypt and Morocco I treat as culturally and historically Middle - Eastern, I think they don't represent black African civilizations at all (there is a reason a truckload of cultural, historical, geographical, sociological research use classification MENA: Middle - East - and - North - Africa).

Once I read in the book of Unesco of history of Africa, that in old old kingdom the Egyptian was black. I would like to see a real black Pharaoh.
But to avoid controrversia of skin color, I would pic Piye as a leader.

2) In such forums, for some reason, for some (legit awesome) suggestions of Subsaharan civilizations, name of very particular state entities are used, ignoring that it is generally better idea to go for names of entire nations, cultures, civilizations stretching over history, not just the most prominent countries. European civs in games like this don't get "Prussia, Castille, Tuscany, Wessex, Suzdal" but "Germany, Spain, Italy, England and Russia".
Yoruba (civilization, people) instead of Oyo (one state)
Igbo (civilization, people) instead of Nri (one state)
Akan (civilization, people) instead of Ashanti (one state)
Fulani (civilization, people) instead of Sokoto (one state)
Edo (civilization, people) instead of Benin (one state)

I don't will mind if Germany come as Prussia lead by Frederick the great. But is preferible use the same names used on ONU, that's the reason I want to Angola instead of Ndongo from Queen Nzinga. The same happens to Indonesia instead of Mahapahit.
I would prefer the names Oyo, Ashante and Benin kingdom because they rule over other people too.

3) I don't respect Dahomey as civ suggestion because a) It was very, very small entity, size of Greek, Italian or German city - states and b) It was entirely built around endemic slave wars and trade of fellow African neighbors.. Like, its entire existence was built upon the horror of Atlantic slave trade, you cannot separate it. I consider it to be an abomination because of that (similarly I am unable to respect Barbary States in Maghreb and Crimean Khanate - they were little more than vehicles powered mainly by extreme human suffering, to a degree far exceeding overall history of Greeks, Romans and most other civilizations). So basically it was a tiny city state heavily reliant on constant slavery

not so tiny as a city state, to do a City State need to put the capital Abomey, or the capital of other Fon cities beconquered as Allada and Ouidah.
And not forget the city of Ketu who was conquered by Ghezo, was the biggest Yoruba city in Dahomey Empire and all population was selled to slavery abroad, monstly in Brazil and Cuba. (That is the why the religion in Brazil is called Candomblé Ketu).

About Dahomey they was the most harder battle of conquest of the French Empire on Africa. Dahomey used his famous Ahosi (or Mino). The Amazon Fighters.
Thinking about the game, It will be an amazing a female troop, she may have extra bonus atk against male units.
Also the Dahomey was the first country to recognize Brazilian indepence of Portugal (USA was the second). Showing how linked Dahomey and Brazil history is, both end their monarchy in the same year and both because slavery.

With all respect, let's be honest. Central African Republic and Chad are both disastrous failed states, Botswana and Lesotho are tiny and hardly insignificant

what the problem if they are failed states? There was a kingdom called Chad in middle ages.
Botswana is not so tiny, and have one of the highst IDH of Africa.

The only modern African states that 'feel right' for me to be in civ series are honestly maybe Kenya and Ghana.

When I put Ghana I was thinking in old kingdom who was in Mali before Mali was a thing. But if you understand as the modern state of Ghana, okay. They are cool, the first independent country of Africa maybe lead by his first president Kwame Nkrumah, but I believe Osei Tutu of Ashante Empire has more appeal.

6) There is no and there has never been such civilization, people, culture, identity or language as 'Libya, Libyan'. For 3000 years of history there have always been two separate entities, Tripolitania and Cyrenaica, always either in separate countries or in separate provinces within one country. Never ever have they been seriously united, until arbitrary artificial colony of Italian 'Libya' - even the Greek name (generic name for North Africans) itself IIRC was introduced in like 1934 by Mussolini regime. There are two nations here, and what happened after 2011? Country returning to its natural ethnic borders by means of chaos and violence.

Egyptians also call the West of their kingdom Lybia. At least I understand that in my Unesco book of History of Africa.

 

[BuchiTaton]

> MAGHREB: Carthage and Berber(Almohad) civs.
> NILE: Egypt and Nubia civs
> HORN OF AFRICA: Ethiopia and Somalia civs.
> SAHEL: Songhai and Kanembu civs.
> GUINEA: Yoruba(Oyo) and Ashanti civs.
> BANTU: Kongo and Zimbabwe civs.

Some different leaders for regular civs:
- Ezana for Ethiopia (Axum).
- Hashepsut for Egypt.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I forgot Burkina Fasso lead by Thomas Sankara

He is the dude who give the name of the country Burkina Fasso, before him this country was called Alto Volta

 

[Xandinho]

I voted for the three most essential: Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali.

Then, I voted for the ones I'd like to see more often than not: Nubia, Kongo, Zulu and Morocco/Berbers.

Finally, I voted for the ones I'd to see included in the game in the future: Ashanti, Benin, Swahilli and Madagascar.

Almost half of the list are modern nations and I'm not very interested in them, with the exception of Ethiopia if led by Haile Selassie and Madagascar if focused on Merina Kingdom. I'd like to see Nigeria only if the game gets close to 70 civs someday.

 

[Patine]

Almost half of the list are modern nations and I'm not very interested in them.

As I said, above, I would very much to have the Kingdom of Buganda as an option clearly divorced from the crumbling, tinpot Republic of Uganda.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Almost half of the list are modern nations and I'm not very interested in them, with the exception of Ethiopia if led by Haile Selassie and Madagascar if focused on Merina Kingdom. I'd like to see Nigeria only if the game gets close to 70 civs someday.

Some of modern states has it name rooted in ancient african kingdoms. For example Ghana or Chad who is modern states but it is also a medieval kingdom, the Ghana kingdom was in modern day Mali (I never understand why Ghana choice this name for it self)
Benin also was a kingdom in Nigeria but it is a country where was supossed to be Dahomey.

But speaking about numbers of Civ, I believe is needed at least 8 civilizations from Africa to set a fun game with just Africans civs (I like to play this game in real maps with Civs in real location, and it is boring just have 5 black civs to play with in Civ 6)

As I said, above, I would very much to have the Kingdom of Buganda as an option clearly divorced from the crumbling, tinpot Republic of Uganda.

I like your Buganda idea, I don't put it in the poll because I didn't know about them before.

 

[Evie]

Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali should be series staples, included in every iteration from here on out the same way China, England and France are. Zulu should get their staplehood taken away,

Beyond this, I'd like ever civ game, after all expansions, to include

1. One South East African civ, rotating between Zulu, Zimbabwe-Mutapa-etc and Swahili
2. One Maghreb civ, rotating between Morocco/Almoravids, Carthage (when Phoenicia is not included instead, or other Berber or Numidian civilizations.
3. One South-west African civ, rotating between Ashanti, Benin, Kongo
4. One non-Mali Sahel civ, rotating between Songhai, Hausa, Kanem-Bornu
5. And Nubia being an occasional inclusion once in a while.

Modern countries with modern leaders can continue staying out.

 

[Patine]

Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali should be series staples, included in every iteration from here on out the same way China, England and France are. Zulu should get their staplehood taken away,

Beyond this, I'd like ever civ game, after all expansions, to include

1. One South East African civ, rotating between Zulu, Zimbabwe-Mutapa-etc and Swahili
2. One Maghreb civ, rotating between Morocco/Almoravids, Carthage (when Phoenicia is not included instead, or other Berber or Numidian civilizations.
3. One South-west African civ, rotating between Ashanti, Benin, Kongo
4. One non-Mali Sahel civ, rotating between Songhai, Hausa, Kanem-Bornu
5. And Nubia being an occasional inclusion once in a while.

Modern countries with modern leaders can continue staying out.

What about Buganda (with the all-important, "B," in front of it? I think it's a very fascinating civ, myself. I just happened to have a friend whose a Rwandan-Canadian, originally was a refugee for some years in Uganda, and is fluent in several languages of the Great Lakes Region of Africa (including Luganda), so maybe I have a bit of a window on this civ that many others, here, don't, I admit.

 

[Henri Christophe]

What about Buganda (with the all-important, "B," in front of it? I think it's a very fascinating civ, myself. I just happened to have a friend whose a Rwandan-Canadian, originally was a refugee for some years in Uganda, and is fluent in several languages of the Great Lakes Region of Africa (including Luganda), so maybe I have a bit of a window on this civ that many others, here, don't, I admit.

Buganda is a very good option, we can start work in this idea. What should be Buganda's Unique Unit, Unique Improvement and leader?

Now I may ask, what about Dahomey? Just Krajzen speak about they and speak bad things.
I would love to see Dahomey in this game. Most because it's Unique Unit Ahosi (The Amazon warriors)
It should be fun to have a female units with bonus against male units.

I know the Dahomey history is almost entirely linked with slavery, and slavery is a bad thing.
But I believe it is necessary at least one slavery kingdom to well represent the history of Africa. Or better, the history of world.
I also know there is other options of Slavery Kingdoms as Oyo, Ashante and Benin who the history have other things than Slavery, but none of them have a so cool Unique Unit as Ahosi.
Moreover, the Dahomey was the hardest conquest of French Empire in Africa. Ahosi was fearless warriors and deserve be in the game.

 

[Evie]

A bonus against male units would amount to a bonus against nearly all units in the game, so...mechanically pointless. Not to mention that making the women unit have a bonus against men unit has dicey implications to say the least.

All in all your idea is just not very good game design. And we can have nations that participated in the slave trade without having nations that build their entire core around the slave trade. The later category is best left out.

 

[awesome]

I’d like to see Kanem make an appearance, filling that area of Africa
They’d get some kind of trade focused ability, and would preferably be Lee by Dunama Dabbalemi, but I could also see Idris Alooma, if they want to connect Kanem and Bornu
I’m not sure what unit they’d have, though.

 

[Henri Christophe]

A bonus against male units would amount to a bonus against nearly all units in the game, so...mechanically pointless. Not to mention that making the women unit have a bonus against men unit has dicey implications to say the least.

There is also genderless units as Tanks and Helicopters, making this mechanic feasible.

I’d like to see Kanem make an appearance, filling that area of Africa
They’d get some kind of trade focused ability, and would preferably be Lee by Dunama Dabbalemi, but I could also see Idris Alooma, if they want to connect Kanem and Bornu
I’m not sure what unit they’d have, though.

Ohh no, I also forgot Kanem-Bornu, I'm sorry for that.
I would like to see the Kanem in this game too

 

[Patine]

There is also genderless units as Tanks and Helicopters, making this mechanic feasible.

That only appear at the tail end of the game. The mechanic is just as unfeasable and un-marketable as your Brazilian slave-raider unit turning defeated enemy units into new workers from a couple years ago.