Assorted Language Questions

I actually think that it's only Trump who speaks a language that nobody speaks.

And as to what I think you're getting at BC, yes, the situation that the linguists cited by We Wuz document: the disappearance of whole languages, I find terribly sad. Like, I think our country could take pride that 150 of Seke's remaining 700 speakers live in the US, and even take steps to preserve the language as far as possible before it does disappear. (Presumably generative AI could "learn" to speak it on some level). But try making that a campaign issue in the US.
 
And as to what I think you're getting at BC, yes, the situation that the linguists cited by We Wuz document: the disappearance of whole languages, I find terribly sad. Like, I think our country could take pride that 150 of Seke's remaining 700 speakers live in the US, and even take steps to preserve the language as far as possible before it does disappear. (Presumably generative AI could "learn" to speak it on some level). But try making that a campaign issue in the US.
I agree that it is sad. The problem is that it's hard to preserve languages that don't have a critical mass of people speaking them, and it's hard enough to sell easy things as campaign issues!

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I've been reading a few language books lately, and beginning to study Latin, which will not likely result in fluency, but I've made it to "conversational" in French and Esperanto in the past, so who knows. One of the interesting things that the books have pointed out is that our ability to distinguish the difference between sounds decreases as we age, and is highest when we are younger than five. For example, I knew that "r" is pronounced differently in Spanish than English, with a "rolling" sound that I can hear but struggle to reproduce, but apparently "r" is pronounced differently in French than English as well?

But that's part of why it's hard to fully accurately learn a language from a pronunciation standpoint, particularly if you want to meet the academic standard of being fluent like a native, i.e. speaking without a discernable accent. If you can't tell the difference between what you are saying and what the native person is saying, how are you going to adjust your speech? And even if you can hear the difference, that doesn't mean it's easy.

I've also been pondering the perpetual challenge of the terminology of linguistics. Which makes me wonder, is that just a problem in English? I didn't know what "fricative" meant at the time Birdjaguar posted about not knowing what it meant. Now I know that it's actually a relatively explainable term as linguistics terms go; the "fric" has the same root as "friction", and a "fricative" is a sound you make by producing friction. I learned it via the "voiceless interdental fricative", the sound you make when you put your tongue between your teeth (interdental) and move it without vibrating your vocal cords, causing friction and the "th" sound in English - one of the sounds that can prove elusive for non-native speakers.

"interdental fricative" likely is meaningless to 99% of native English speakers who aren't linguists, though, so of very limited utility to someone learning English, as is "the 'th' sound" if they can't make the "th" sound. The "tongue between the teeth sound" might not be very elegant, but at least would give a hint as to what to do to make "the 'th' sound".

Now I wonder what a "bilabial fricative" is - although since I've figured out "fricative", I can apply some etymology and guess it's a friction-based sound made with the lips, which means - the "p" sound? Oh, the "b" sound. I guess that one is also made with both lips and friction, but with different voicing? (Edit: Yes! The chart Harv linked to confirms that "b" is the voiced bilabial sound, and "p" is the voiceless bilabial sound. Which makes sense, I can make a soft "p" voicelessly, but have to vibrate my vocal cords to make "b". Now I just need to learn "alveolar", "labiodental", "velar", etc., but at least I know "palatal" - and this chart will make it easier to learn through experimentation)

But what's an "ergative" case? I need more examples than NovaKart's example. Most other case names also have on intrinsic meaning to me based on my native knowledge of English. "Nominative" means "subject", so I guess "nom" or "nomen" might mean "subject" in Latin? "Accusative" means "object" ("I speak Esperanto -> 'Esperanto' is the object/accusative case - Mi parolas Esperanton), but why the word is "accusative", I have no idea. "Ablative" means "in which manner" ("Quintillus is walking with friends" -> "friends" is ablative case, or would be in Latin at least - Quintillus ambulat cum amici), but I couldn't hazard as guess as to why the term is "ablative". And the dictionary definition of "ablative" was useless, thankfully the book I had gave a definition and examples that made sense.

Are grammatical/linguistics terms more intuitive in other languages, or are the terms widely understood? I'd never considered it before, but perhaps a contributing factor to why native English speakers struggle to pick up languages is that even the English terms they encounter when attempting to learn a language are no more familiar than Greek to them. Once of my hopes with studying Latin is that perhaps Latin will make these terms intuitive for me ("ablative", at least, is a Latin term, though I've yet to learn its Latin meaning), and thus make it easier to pick up languages in the future.
 
Yes, those are two different sounds. Singer is /ŋ/ and Finger is /ŋg/. I feel like that's probably pretty widespread in English varieties though I'm sure it's not quite universal.

There's words that do both things - hangar, wringer, banger vs longest, stronger, anger. Not sure there's a firm rule for which does which.
 
Just when you think you've got the hang of a language up pops something like this. The difference is barely perceptible to me.

Anyway I found this cool site:

 
I think about 95% of English monolingual ppl wouldn't even realise that /ŋ/ is it's own phoneme, most people likely just think ng is an n sound then a hard g sound.
 
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For me it's discombobulate. Doesn't work as rap at all
You can dis ya sistah, you can dis ya date.
Dis ya great-grandfather, hell, ya great-great-great-
You can dis da "system," you can dis da state.
You can dis all day, f*** it, stay up late.
You can dis the haters, you can dis the hate.
You can dis cheese-graters; knock ya-self out, mate.
You can dis King Charles til he abdicates,
You can dis pâté, til it dissipates.
There's just one place that you should hesitate:
Whoevah ya dis, don't discombobulate.

Keep ya eyes on the prize, keep ya head on straight.
And whoevah ya dis, don't discombobulate.
Keep ya eyes on the prize, keep ya head on straight.
And whoevah ya dis, don't discombobulate.
 
You can dis ya sistah, you can dis ya date.
Dis ya great-grandfather, hell, ya great-great-great-
You can dis da "system," you can dis da state.
You can dis all day, f*** it, stay up late.
You can dis the haters, you can dis the hate.
You can dis cheese-graters; knock ya-self out, mate.
You can dis King Charles til he abdicates,
You can dis pâté, til it dissipates.
There's just one place that you should hesitate:
Whoevah ya dis, don't discombobulate.

Keep ya eyes on the prize, keep ya head on straight.
And whoevah ya dis, don't discombobulate.
Keep ya eyes on the prize, keep ya head on straight.
And whoevah ya dis, don't discombobulate.
We spell it with a "w" down here. (I don't have an FM wireless so I don't know all of the modern variations.)

You ain't got bling
so dontcha Cling
you're not my kynda Wrap.
 
Yes, those are two different sounds. Singer is /ŋ/ and Finger is /ŋg/. I feel like that's probably pretty widespread in English varieties though I'm sure it's not quite universal.

There's words that do both things - hangar, wringer, banger vs longest, stronger, anger. Not sure there's a firm rule for which does which.

I pronounce them differently also.
 
I think about 95% of English monolingual ppl wouldn't even realise that /ŋ/ is it's own phoneme, most people likely just think ng is an n sound then a hard g sound.
Finger.
'Fing-er or FIN-ger?

/ŋ/ is a sound, it's in the back of your mouth, the n is in the front.
 
I think about 95% of English monolingual ppl wouldn't even realise that /ŋ/ is it's own phoneme, most people likely just think ng is an n sound then a hard g sound.
In English, ng makes two sounds. An ng sound (found in words like "sing") and an ngg sound (as in finger). MOst of he time, ng makes the ng sound plus a g sound unless a verb ends with ng plus -ing in which the ng sound without the g sound is retained for first ng (ex: singing is /sɪŋɪŋ/). Fun fact: In Indonesian, ng is used for plain [ŋ] sound while ngg is used for [ŋg] sound
 
I think about 95% of English monolingual ppl wouldn't even realise that /ŋ/ is it's own phoneme, most people likely just think ng is an n sound then a hard g sound.
I hope you or someone else has the time to read, think about and answer these very long-winded questions.
They were prompted by your comments about /ŋ/ and /ŋg/ phonemes.

Did you notice that when switching from, for example Spanish back to English, there's a kind of "inertia" in play, so that you speak with a slight Spanish accent/pronunciation for the first couple of English words or sentences?

I only speak Lithuanian now when my wife (a post-grad linguistic student at the ANU in 1982 before becoming a lawyer) wants to know certain words, or in some reminiscences I'll discuss with my younger sister.

We watched this video about Sanskrit and Lithuanian, and I was able to work out all of the Sanskrit words, but of course that is light years away from being able to speak it or even to get the correct pronunciation. (I did 3 years of Latin and French at school, but it would strain credulity to breaking point if I said I was a "speaker" of either.)

The video is a bit contrived, a miniscule sample, and very biased towards simple words, except for one complex compound sentence.

However, afterwards, when discussing the video with my wife, I unconsciously used Lithuanian pronunciation for at least 30 seconds.
I know because she laughed and mocked me. Again, and as usual.

My sister's name is Rita. You would probably pronounce her name "Reeta". I do too when I refer to her in something I say, e.g. "Rita is in Tangiers this week."

But I use a trilled r and a short i when I'm talking to her in person, i.e vocative case: "Rita, are you home now?"
I also use that form when I refer to her in (I don't know how to put it in academic linguistic terms) the "long ago" past tense, i.e. when we were living in the family home together.

Sometimes I will use one form of pronunciation for her name, and then correct myself immediately and automatically.
(I'll get back to that in a moment.)

I've also noticed that some people have a similar type of "inertia" insofar as they pronounce the same word differently in sentences a short time apart. I do understand that preceding words and phonemes can affect pronunciation of words ("the" pronounced "thee" would be the best example I can think of). Arwon's examples of singer, sanger, /ŋ/ and /ŋg/ phonemes, etc are germane here too.

But the best way I can put it is - it's as if the person's thoughts are running ahead of what they say. As somebody once said, "People talk first draft". (Zeroth draft in Trump's case! :))

They often correct the pronunciation of the word back to the first type immediately, or sometimes after the sentence is complete.

It's a long time since my wife studied linguistics and I'm sure the field has advanced tremendously in that time.
Have you come across the type of linguistic "pathologies" I described? If so, what formal name is given to them?

If you're still awake, here's the main point I'm trying to make in this ramble...
I suppose they might not be important at some level of academic analysis, but surely computerized "language algorithms", "translation algorithms" and others have to cope with those speech "pathologies". They are not an indication that the speaker's knowledge and use of their language is deficient in any way - everybody does it at some time.

Incidentally, I loved waiting outside her 1st year classes, when she and other students were practicing making various sounds that were to be the subject of the next lesson. It was like the unfortunate inmates of Bedlam were told to go outside and play for 15 minutes. :)
 
I don't think my Spanish as a second language was ever good enough to bleed over into my native English like that, even towards the end of my year living in Spain when I was as fluent as I will probably ever be. I was still unconsciously dropping some extremely Australian vowels into Spanish even by the end of that time.

I would assume it's a lot different for genuine bilinguals.
 
I don't think my Spanish as a second language was ever good enough to bleed over into my native English like that, even towards the end of my year living in Spain when I was as fluent as I will probably ever be. I was still unconsciously dropping some extremely Australian vowels into Spanish even by the end of that time.

I would assume it's a lot different for genuine bilinguals.
Thanks, I understand what you mean.
My son doesn't speak any Lithuanian, but when he was very young (< 4) I taught him to say certain words so he would retain the ability to make some sounds forever.
Even though my wife studied linguists for 4 years (3years + honours) she cannot say words with "dark ells" without a lot of false attempts, e.g. in the nickname "Liolia" for all people with my first name. My son can easily. She says that most people don't (can't?) even hear the difference from the l in e.g. "lever".
 
Did you notice that when switching from, for example Spanish back to English, there's a kind of "inertia" in play, so that you speak with a slight Spanish accent/pronunciation for the first couple of English words or sentences?
Something like this


will tell you that this question is on linguists' radar. "Code-switching" is the first word you want for doing research because that's their word for moving back and forth between two languages. The second sentence of the abstract tells me that earlier studies have determined the verbal effects that tend to linger (and the article itself means to show one more, though in so subtle a fashion that it hasn't been established previously).

Hope that helps.
 
Thanks, I understand what you mean.
My son doesn't speak any Lithuanian, but when he was very young (< 4) I taught him to say certain words so he would retain the ability to make some sounds forever.
Even though my wife studied linguists for 4 years (3years + honours) she cannot say words with "dark ells" without a lot of false attempts, e.g. in the nickname "Liolia" for all people with my first name. My son can easily. She says that most people don't (can't?) even hear the difference from the l in e.g. "lever".
Then is dark l just an allophone of l's usual sound in English? Or is it something that exists in some dialects of English?
 
Then is dark l just an allophone of l's usual sound in English? Or is it something that exists in some dialects of English?
Do you mean that in the same way that rhotic r is more frequent in parts of the US?
If it's only one phoneme, I wouldn't call it a "dialect", but my opinion is not worth much in this game. :)
 
Something like this


will tell you that this question is on linguists' radar. "Code-switching" is the first word you want for doing research because that's their word for moving back and forth between two languages. The second sentence of the abstract tells me that earlier studies have determined the verbal effects that tend to linger (and the article itself means to show one more, though in so subtle a fashion that it hasn't been established previously).

Hope that helps.
Thanks!
I knew it had to be on their radar, especially when it comes to natural language synthesis.
IIRC, Google tried inserting umms and arrs into synthetic speech algorithms to make them more like actual human speech.
Inserting different, sometimes incorrect phonemes is more subtle. Correcting an "incorrect" phoneme immediately or after a sentence is even trickier.
(My wife only did 3 years of linguistics (her Honours was in anthropology), way before computational linguistics was an important sub-field.)
 
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