Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
This thread is involves an issue Thunderbrd pointed out in C2C. This thread is ment to work out the details so we can better balance maintenance. This mainly focuses on buildings but also possibly issues with guilds and corporations. Here are some past posts about the issue ...
I've been wanting to chime in on this subject for a while now. In fact, waaay back from when you did your Fire Brigades mod.
I do all I can to avoid building ANY building with an upkeep percentage increase. This is because the perception of these increases doesn't seem too bad when you initially get the ability to build these buildings. But as stated, when corporations begin to spread they become ultra lethal overnight. Its not so bad since you can destroy the buildings once corporations come around but that's a very time consuming and potentially buggy process, so its better to just not build them, graveyards, public pools, fire halls, etc... all of it. I avoid it all and try to solve happiness and unhealth problems through other means. Because if I don't, the upkeep will destroy my economy down the road. I mean, if you build just a Fire Brigade in every city it will literally cost you thousands of gold per round when corporations are fully spread.
This means that while the concept you're working under appears balanced at first, thanks to getting some gold bonus buildings to balance things out, in the long run, it doesn't.
The idea of upkeep does include bureaucracy at work but it also includes crime rate and the effect of chaos (thus why courthouses reduce % upkeep). The only way to go back to rebalancing these buildings is either to give us enough buildings that reduce upkeep percentage or to give them a flat rate gold upkeep. The latter seems a good suggestion considering that this will make them a bit more appropriate for the earlier game too. That would make for an easier way to balance them overall as you can put into play a roughly equivalent subtraction of gold to the additions of gold you've included. In the early stages, the percentage upkeep actually does very little and is not costing enough.
At the moment, I'm at the tail end of the rennaissance and I'm pulling over 3k gold per turn on 100% research on Deity level play (increased to this level gradually). Since corporations aren't in play yet, I have very little upkeep and a lot of buildings bringing in gold. Once I get corporations out there, if I'm not careful with what I choose to build, I'll drop down to about 80% research to stay in the positive. In simple BtS play, corporations, if done correctly, will give me a net profit.
I love a lot of the new buildings but this issue really needs addressing and reconsidering! It should not be better to avoid building water departments and fire brigades than it is to build them. At the moment, it is better not to build them and allow unhealth if needbe.
I like your idea of negative gold to represent "Taxes" instead of "maintenance". Would you mind tracking down all the maintenance buildings you think that should be changed so I know what to change? That would really help me fix things.
Sure... I'l have to go through the civopedia later tonight to identify them all. Another thought may be reflective of what you were originally intending... -Gold/population (so long as its not TOO drastic (like in measurements of .1 to 1 depending on the effectiveness of the building.). Or -% gold (not commerce and probably somewhere between 1-5% and balancable by other buildings). Either of thse would replicate the growing cost for expanding need without interfering with the corporation structure.
However, I'm not certain this couldn't lead to some xml errors but its worth a shot anyhow and possibly reparable by adjusting the data type of a given number or boil things down to a min 1 or 0 in the final equation before it causes problems... if I look up my c++ references I can figure out how to make a few simple changes that would allow this if errors are being generated.
Do you think i should go straight -gold like how farms give straight + gold or do you think it should be -% gold?
In addition how much maintenance should each building be adjusted? Should it be a straight conversion of maintenance value to gold value or should it be reduces or increased, and by how much?
As for the first question there, I was thinking -1 gold per +5% maintenance as it currently stands. Keep in mind this is reducing the base and thus going to have greater impact as you come to rely more and more on +% gold buildings. This would impose between -1 and -5 gold which would equate to a lot more than that when +% gold buildings are then impacted as the base reduces.
If you'd like to go with -% gold, then perhaps -2 or 3% per +5% maintenance as it currently stands. This would have to be watched carefully though as you would NOT want to go into less than 0% gold output. That'd likely be cause for an error and would mean you're getting no gold no matter how much you work the land etc... So moderate #s like 2 or 3% would keep things reasonable. That would make a +25% maintenance = between -10 and -15% gold. Some serious numbers indeed at that point.
These suggestions would place the costs somewhere in the realm I expect you intended. Could be you meant it to be even less. I tend to lean towards -% gold to reflect the city costing more to staff a larger infrastructure as it grows. It takes more firemen, stations, equipment and supplies to cover a size 50 city than a size 10. But then, the problem with this theory is that it is not parallelling the need as much as a price per population would.
On a price per population, I'd assign a straight -.1 gold per current 5% maintenance per population. Thus 1 gold per 10 population/5% current maintenance cost. That would make a +25% maintenance cost building cost 5 gold per 10 population. This seems reasonable given that we also have the capability to give some buildings the opposite benefit. Such a system would be more reflective of 'maintenance' that doesn't mess with corps.
Is this even possible to do? First setting a number in decimals? I thought they had to be whole numbers. In addition can you even do gold per population? If they can what code do I need to fill in to make it work?
Hmm... maybe we can't. Probably best to go with a straight percent mod then.
Ok, so I went through the civopedia last night and found the following buildings have a + to maintenance %. I don't think you'd want to remove it from ALL of them... perhaps we should just consider this % to be a reflection of crime rate... that might keep it in the right ball park. Under this consideration, there are other buildings that you may wish to ADD some maintenance % penalties.
In general, this list falls into 4 categories of buildings: Public Utilities, Leisure, Defense, and Beauracracy. IMO, Public Utilities should be converted to a % gold penalty. Leisure should remain maintenance if it would enhance the crime rate such as in the case of Saloons etc, and otherwise reflect a slight loss of production (-1 hammer, etc...). Defense should be a flat rate gold cost. Beauracracy, a percentage gold penalty (very slight) PLUS a reduced maintenance penalty (1/2 to 1/4 of what it currently stands at) to reflect abuses of the system.
Anyhow, that's how I would go about it myself... I could be totally off. There is one building on here that should have a REVERSE effect on maintenance, and that would be the Police Station.
So, without further comment, here are the buildings that currently increase maintenance costs:
Spoiler :
Airfield
Aquarium
Arena
Ballroom
Battlebot Arena
Biofuel Power Plant
Biomass Power Plant
Booby Traps
Bus Station
Castle
Cistern
Citadel
City Council
City Gatehouse
Cruise Ship Port
Desalination Plant
Drama School
Fairgrounds
Farm Supply
Fencing Academy
Fighting Pit
Fire Brigade
Fire Dock
Fire Hangar
Fire Hydrants
Fire Station
Florist
Garbage Collection Agency
Geothermal Power Plant
Gladiatorial School
Graveyard
Greenhouse
Guild Hall
Hammam
High Tech Coal Power Plant
Ice Rink
Igloo
Insane Assylum
Jousting Tournament
Landmines
Major League Stadium
Manor
Mechanical Traps
Methane Power Plant
Metropolitan Administration
Microwave Power Plant
Minor League Stadium
Music School
Natural Gas Powerplant
Paved Roads
Personal Rapid Train
Petting Zoo
Pit Traps
Police Station
Power Lines
Public Pool
Public Transportation
Ranger Station
Recreation Center
Recycling Center
Reservoir
Retirement Home
Robotic Traps
Saloon
Security Center
Servant's Quarter
Sewer System
Ski Resort
Social Services
Solar Mirror Array
Solar Photovoltaic Power Plant
Solar Photovoltaic Roofs
Solar Power Satellite
Speedway
State Park
Super Coal Power Plant
Telephone Network
Throne Room
Tidal Farm
Town Hall
Town Watch
Town Well
Townclock
Vacation Resort
Village Hall
Waste Incinerator Power Plant
Water Pipes
Water Pumping Station
Water Raceway
Water Tower
Water Treatment Plant
Wave Farm
Weather Station
Welfare Office
Wind Farm
Wind Water Pump
Zero G Sports Arena
Zoo
That's 89 buildings that create increased maintenance... Its no wonder Corporations (and even guilds) cost so much!
As a side note, after some discussion yesterday, we feel that some of the buildings, such as the fire depts etc, could be made more useful (currently just a way to combat unhealth ever so slightly) by making them required for easy fixes to frequent disastrous events. Some of the events we have could take some tampering to adjust to this idea... forest fires for example... with a fire dept or such in the nearby city, the option to take care of it without cost could come up. This would be a neat way to make such buildings indespensable and be more reflective of the actual reason the real world finds them to be. I figure that concept might inspire even more buildings with similar purposes. (evacuation centers anyone?)
@Thunderbrd
Before I change anything you keep talking about maintenance representing "crime", but I thought revolutions (stability/instability) and espionage represented crime.
Espionage would represent international spying and stopping international crimes, even committing international crimes on a state level.
Revolutions would represent an anti-state sentiment... people being unhappy with their govt and what they wish to do about it.
But Maintenance was originally established as the way to measure internal crime rate, stemming from a new way to reinvent the old CivIII system of Crime Rate. Maintenance comes from tax evasion, theft, organized crime, skimming, scams, the spread of drug abuse etc... In short, it is the cost on society that is incurred from criminal behavior. Or at least that was what it was set to represent initially. Thus courthouses have always, since vanilla, reduced Maintenance. Why Shinto buildings, aka, a culture of honor, reduces maintenance. Why the farther you get from the capital, the more the public feels disconnected from a sense of national pride that may guide them into more pro-societal behavior. (Snake oil salesmen, gunfighters, and prostitutes primarily operated in the west US on the frontiers rather than closer to the root of the US civilization in the east)
The positive angle of crime is that it can be harnessed for the purpose of military intelligence as those who seek to spy on us, sneak through borders illegally, fugitives from other governments etc are often discovered and probed through normal law enforcement activities, thus why jails etc are giving us espionage as well.
In fact, with some of the techs you've proposed, perhaps just their discovery should increase maintenance % (drug trade for example). Police stations and the like would combat the naturally growing phenomenons of crime thus reducing maintenance that should continue to grow otherwise as a result of increasing human intelligence finding new ways to exploit societal structure.
This is the way I see it... not saying its the only way to view the game theory.
Oh... and I love the idea of the flammability mod... such percentages could plug in nicely with a random event process.
Oh, I always though "maintenance" was like repairing broken things. Keeping the various buildings from falling into decay. That's why places like parks need maintained in order to keep their lawns moved and shrubs trimmed. Or power plants which need need constant maintenance to keep them running.
Note when i say "maintenance" i no not mean the same "maintenance" that units have. That I assume is feeding, clothing, housing and training your units.
However i am still a bit confused on what "maintenance" really means. One sources says it is this ...
Maintenance: City costs maintenance. The further they are from the capital, the more gold they will cost per turn. If you expand too fast, especially early in the game, your gold per turn will plummet due to increasing maintenance costs. Expand slow, and you will be able to sustain each city you found.
This seems really vague of what it represents. Do you know or have a better explanation?
In addition what is representing "upkeep" of buildings then?
In a lot of ways, I think the Civ designers were a little vague on purpose, allowing it to be left to a number of interpretations.
However, in this particular case, where we are really becoming much more specific with realism and detail, and where we have so much greater 'reality resolution' as it were, we are finding some of the functions of the game are being disrupted as we outgrow some of the basic model.
In other words, so much maintenance destroys the profitability or even feasability of guilds and corporations. I'm sure the game designers intended maintenance to include upkeep... I think I read somewhere that it was BOTH crime and upkeep. In Vanilla, this vagueness was functional.
But I believe WE need to split up the two so that we can make the buildings have more purpose and meaning individually and so that we can maintain game balance.
Therefore, if we continue to consider maintenance a hemorrhage cost of crime and establish the alternative of -gold% / -flat rate gold cost/round to represent the cost of maintaining against natural decay or of staffing governmental employees, then we would find ourselves in both a more workable AND realistic environment.
Does anyone else agree/disagree?
Ok then that explains things a bit. So i was not totally wrong in interpreting "maintenance". However now I do not understand why corporations use the same "maintenance" if its crime.
I am all for establishing what stat represents what. Personally I wish there was a separate +/- "crime" stat that we could fill in separate from maintenance.
In addition if maintenance is representing "crime" should say schools and eduction help reduce crime?
Sure... sounds like a good interpretation.
Corp's use the same maintenance because they were an afterthought. Maintenance is a general drain on the income represented in a percentage though I don't know the full equation exactly. The reason maintenance impacts us so heavily when corporations get involved is because each city has to pay corporate dues which are 100% higher when maintenance in that city is 100%. Corporations are set to provide 10 gold or so for every city that has adopted the corporation (generated through the corporate headquarters) and if that city has most of the buildings built there that heavily impact +gold percentage, its very feasible to gain a profit (most corps will not cost more than 20 or so gold per city if maintenance is properly managed - this can become overwhelming though if you oversupply a corporation with its resources as the amount of dues paid goes up with extra resources...(on regular BTS))
Regardless, Corporations probably should well fit into the maintenance mold as being heavily impacted by it. This is because the most costly of all crimes involve white collar high level scheming to shuffle money in illegal ways to profit and the corporate system does breed this sort of abuse - the more powerful the corporation the more likely and costly the abuse. That said, if maintenance can be controlled by effective economic systems and law enforcement combined with genius money management in the seat of the corporate headquarters (wall street etc...), the impact and frequency of such crimes can be effectively managed. Governments making wise decisions about how to manage corporations SHOULD profit on corporations... not saying they always will even in a well balanced system as there are many factors involved there.
@Thunderbrd
How is this?
Spoiler :Public Utilities (-%)
- Biofuel Power Plant
- Biomass Power Plant
- Bus Station
- Cistern
- Desalination Plant
- Fire Brigade
- Fire Dock
- Fire Hangar
- Fire Hydrants
- Fire Station
- Garbage Collection Agency
- Geothermal Power Plant
- High Tech Coal Power Plant
- Methane Power Plant
- Microwave Power Plant
- Natural Gas Powerplant
- Paved Roads
- Personal Rapid Train
- Power Lines
- Public Transportation
- Recycling Center
- Reservoir
- Sewer System
- Solar Mirror Array
- Solar Photovoltaic Power Plant
- Solar Photovoltaic Roofs
- Solar Power Satellite
- Super Coal Power Plant
- Telephone Network
- Tidal Farm
- Town Well
- Waste Incinerator Power Plant
- Water Pipes
- Water Pumping Station
- Water Tower
- Water Treatment Plant
- Wave Farm
- Wind Farm
- Wind Water Pump
Leisure (- Maintenance %)
- Airfield
- Aquarium
- Arena
- Ballroom
- Battlebot Arena
- Cruise Ship Port
- Drama School
- Fairgrounds
- Fencing Academy
- Fighting Pit
- Gladiatorial School
- Graveyard
- Ice Rink
- Jousting Tournament
- Major League Stadium
- Minor League Stadium
- Music School
- Petting Zoo
- Public Pool
- Ranger Station
- Recreation Center
- Ski Resort
- Speedway
- State Park
- Vacation Resort
- Water Raceway
- Zero G Sports Arena
- Zoo
Defense (-
- Booby Traps
- Castle
- Citadel
- City Gatehouse
- Landmines
- Mechanical Traps
- Pit Traps
- Police Station
- Robotic Traps
- Security Center
- Town Watch
Bureaucracy (-1/2
- City Council
- Guild Hall
- Metropolitan Administration
- Social Services
- Town Hall
- Village Hall
- Welfare Office
? (Where should these go and should some of these have their cost taken out?)
- Farm Supply
- Florist
- Greenhouse
- Hammam
- Insane Assylum
- Manor
- Retirement Home
- Saloon
- Servant's Quarter
- Throne Room
- Townclock
- Weather Station
What do you think?
See Post
Ok, so I took liberties to adjust a bit and highlighted the suggested adustments (blue is a move from one category to another and green is a prev unmentioned building)
