Rise of Asia

[Blue Monkey]

If Bamboo becomes the regular forrest, you could still use the Pine Forrest graphics, they'll just have the same stats, and possibly in-game name as the Bamboo forrest.

I hadn't thought that through, but you right. The only difficulty might be that if we give high values (ie shield yield) to the Bamboo, we'll get the same for the Pines. I don't think we really want the Mongols going industrial by planting and harvesting Taiga.

How about giving LM hills a seperate graphic set to distinguish them from the rest of the mountains?

Our goal is to have "hidden" passes through the otherwise inaccessible Himalayas. distinguishing graphics would defeat that purpose.

 

[timerover51]

Re Bamboo Forest. Do any of you have an Age of Empires II game that you could use for screen shots? That game has plenty of bamboo forest in it. I seem to remember the bamboo forest in one of the Civ3Complete scenarios, so I will join looking for it.

Blue Monkey, I will try to get you the resource list by Saturday. With respect to China, Manchuria should be a combination of plain, mountains, with steppe in the northwest corner, actually borderline desert. You have near tropical conditions in the south, near the present Vietnam border. Do you have a map set that shows biomes for the jungle? Otherwise, I will dig out what I have and pass it on to you.

 

[Blue Monkey]

The biome data I have is mainly from Map Machine (National geographic Online). The level of detail It shows would basically have all of southern China forested that's not hills/mountains. Thanks for the Manchuria info; I look forward to resource data. Taking a look at the map/biq yesterday, I think I left too much of South Asia (India) open grassland. I'll be adjusting that on the next go around to include more Plains, and covering more of the grassland with forest/jungle.

7Ronin, SoG, Shirou, others ...any comments yet?

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

I have been alittle busy at home with priviate matters but I'll try to help locate that bamboo forest icon..

 

[Blue Monkey]

If it's not a famine it's a feast:
Here's a zip with a newer version of the map. The only changes are to South Asia: more plains (taken from grassland), more jungle and forest. I'm calling this map version 0.9. To qualify as version 1.0 it will need to incorporate input from the rest of the team, and have at least preliminary placement of resources.

In the mean time, as a special treat for those who want to see what the map looks like from the inside without messing around in the editor, and those who would like to test run the geography itself for playability (hint, hint) the zip also includes a version of the map with a totally random distribution of the standard Conquests resources. To play a game on this map: (1) Place it in your \Conquests\Scenarios\ folder (2) Start the game and select the map from the Civ-Content submenu (3) Choose your tribe, etc. and start conquering.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Looks very promising Blue. Thanks for all the time you invested in that. I think its time to start assembling a basic biq toghether with east asian civs.

That means Japan, Korea, China type civs, that way we can eliminate having to worry about flavor units at this point.

Anyone good with assembling tech trees in biqs? I know I'm not. I'll handle the Leaderheads, Civilipedia and unit part though.

 

[7ronin]

@Blue: the map is just super! I love it. Great job. One small cavil: I would change the mountains on the west coast of India into hills. How did you go about constructing the map?

@Swoggy: I thought (perhaps wrongly) Shiro was going to do all the leaderheads since he had quite a few done already. Since we're not doing units yet, there's no reason no to put in all the civs as selected by our leader.

@all: What are your thoughts on city placement. I think there are basically three options:
1. Historical city placement at start.
2. Capital city only at start.
3. No cities at start.

We need to make some city lists also.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I would change the mountains on the west coast of India into hills.

I debated back and forth on this, and finally went with mountains just to be consistent in how I interpreted the elevation data I used. I'm very interested to hear your reasoning; I will probably incorporate it to include some more hills and fewer peaks at the next revision.

I know Shirou was away for the Summer. Do we know when he will be back and active again?

 

[7ronin]

I just have never considered them to be mountains. They certainly aren't anywhere near as tall as what really passes for mountains on the map. Also, I guess I've also gotten used to them as hills from playing Rambuchan's Rise and Fall of the Mughals.

Shirou may already be back. They are already having college registration in our state as you are probably aware. Of course he could be going to school in North Dakota and might be on a different schedule.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I’m trying both to share my thinking at this stage of the map/BIQ development and provoke some brainstorming on the next steps we can take

Terrain

I think I left too much of South Asia (India) open grassland. I'll be adjusting that on the next go around to include more Plains, and covering more of the grassland with forest/jungle.

Manchuria should be a combination of plain, mountains, with steppe in the northwest corner, actually borderline desert. You have near tropical conditions in the south, near the present Vietnam border.

I just have never considered them to be mountains. They certainly aren't anywhere near as tall as what really passes for mountains on the map.

The next version of the map will have a lot more forest / jungle. Based on playing the map a bit with random resource distribution and standard Conquest civs it looks like everyone is growing too fast. The Western Ghats are going to see more hills, fewer mountains.

I'd like the "passes" to need to be discovered ... we can use its LM slot (and reset the movement, shield, etc. values) with mountain graphics to portray the passes ... using the Mountain/SnowCapped Mt. graphics that already exist.

I’ll also be introducing the use of LM Hills with Mountain graphics for the passable Mountain terrain. The standard Mountains will become impassable.

I want to introduce LM Grassland (no changed graphics at present), with a lower food rating to simulate the lower fertility of the steppes in Central / Western Asia. I’m also thinking about using the LM Sea to simulate in some fashion the deep trenches near the Philippines and south of Indonesia.

I could use some help tracking down that bamboo resource someone made...it is from that that the bamboo forest terrain will be made from...

What you’re looking for may be here:
Casus Belli's Edited Resource Compilation I could use help (TimeRover?) knowing where to place the base forest that will be Bamboo, and whereto use LM Forest for the standard forest that can be cut down to plant bamboo.

We need to consider if we want to use a terrain mod, such as that used in Rhye’s or TAM from which to base our revisions. In particular I like the Mountains in Rhye’s and the terrain He calls Plateau, which I would consider substituting for the standard Hills.
TAM uses a similar set; in particular I like the lotuses in the swamp which I would use in place of the Marsh. Both Mods also have a lot of resources that would be worth looking at.

Resources

Blue Monkey, I will try to get you the resource list by Saturday. ...Do you have a map set that shows biomes for the jungle? Otherwise, I will dig out what I have and pass it on to you.

I’m still waiting for this info. As soon as I get access to some decent resource maps, and some indication of what changes we want to make from the standard set I can add resources to the map.

Tribal Placement

Since we're not doing units yet, there's no reason no to put in all the civs as selected by our leader.

I think its time to start assembling a basic biq toghether with east asian civs. That means Japan, Korea, China type civs, that way we can eliminate having to worry about flavor units at this point.

I can at least place a starting crew (settler/warrior?) based on Shirou’s culture map (post #21 ). Sword of G: I’ve never done this before; are you suggesting we start by reduplicating the Asian civs graphics, renaming them as we go? Or do we start by placing civs with similar characteristics, then changing graphics, etc.? On that note look at this little chart:
Shirou’s map has 4 civs not in his master list, all in locations that need a civ at start for competition’s sake. 7Ronin gave us a good start at Civ-specific abilities in post #127 (Bold is for named Civs, italics is the standard civ with a matching attribute set). We need to broaden the assigned attributes. Comparing to LoneWolf5050’s chart (page 10 in the pdf) our 20-24 civs are only using 10 of the 28 possible 2 attribute combinations.


If I can get some guidance on the issues I’ve raised, so I know how to attack the next set of objectives, we can shortly have a BIQ with LM Terrain, a first stab at resources, and a set of at least placeholder civs.


Future Map Tutorial

How did you go about constructing the map?

Based on the several compliments/inquiries I’ve received I’m planning on starting a mapping tutorial thread, after this Mod project is beyond the need for major attention. I’ll draw together what I’ve learned about LM Terrain, Resources, as well as how I build a map. It would be premature to do so now, since I’m still learning too much to write something coherent.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

I think you had the right idea when it came to the civs Blue. Follow Shiro's recommendations regarding their stats however. When you've put them in, we can decide what to do next.

Any ideas regarding units and wonders, improvements will come later.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

Hey Im back,
Blue Monkey:
Civ list and Stat looks prefect, the one problem I have is the Ezo/Emishi. Commerical doesnt sound like the Emishi. Maybe Agricultural?

Do we have a tech list?

 

[Blue Monkey]

I think you had the right idea when it came to the civs Blue.

The problem is that i made two different suggestions:

I can at least place a starting crew (settler/warrior?) based on Shirou’s culture map ... I’ve never done this before; are you suggesting we start by reduplicating the Asian civs graphics, renaming them as we go? Or do we start by placing civs with similar characteristics, then changing graphics, etc.?

I need explicit guidance on which I should do. You've modded; this is my first. Which approach will save us more effort in the long run?

Civ list and Stat looks prefect, the one problem I have is the Ezo/Emishi. Commerical doesnt sound like the Emishi. Maybe Agricultural?

Changing the Emishi to Religious/Agricultural (Celts) helps the diversity; even with that it's like we're playing a game with 4 Iriquois, 3 Indias, 2 Japans, 2 Mongols, 2 Incas, and 2 Englands - that's 15 of 20 Civs - only representing 6 different approaches. I'm very concerned that we ought to have a wider diversity of civ-attributes for playability. With 28 possibke combinations and 24 total proposed civs we don't need to duplicate at all unless we really want to.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

well why dont we take out industrialust. And make our own traits.
like:
Nomatic
Defensive
Adoptive?

 

[Blue Monkey]

...And make our own traits.

If you can do it, great! I'm only concerned that the civs differ from each other.

 

[Blue Monkey]

In particular I like the Mountains in Rhye’s and the terrain He calls Plateau, which I would consider substituting for the standard Hills. TAM uses a similar set; in particular I like the lotuses in the swamp which I would use in place of the Marsh.

This is from the west end of our map. Left to right are TAM (lotus on swamps, standard hill graphics), Rhye's ("plateau" LM hills), Mughals (a 3rd marsh variation, some palette and vegetation variations). I believe all of these are derived from Snoopy's Terrain, most units/resources/cities should therefore work well with them. Let me know what direction to go with so I can move ahead with the map.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

do you we have a UU list for the civs?
And do we have a unit line?

I think since this mod is focused on the rise of Asia, we should end before the Industrial Revolution. Also the leaderheads will only be 2 eras, so I can make them much faster.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

I thought you wanted the mod to last to WW1 Shiro? Change of plan? We had a unit line planed and everything.

Seriously, someone needs to start workign on that biq. Adding the units, working on the tech-tree(which I'm horrible at with the X and Y cowardinance) We need to get the ball rolling, otherwise its just a discussion about making a mod. The rockets on the ground ready to launch, but it hasn't launched yet.

 

[7ronin]

well why dont we take out industrialust. And make our own traits.
like:
Nomatic
Defensive
Adoptive?

The traits are hard coded and what they do or how many there are cannot be changed. You can change the names, for example you could call "Industrialist" "Nomadic," but Nomadic would still do the same things for you that Industrialist did.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Seriously, someone needs to start workign on that biq.

I have been working on the biq: Map=>LM Terrain & Resources=>Civ placement=>etc. Since the biq is like a baton, and only one person can make changes to the current version at a time, how about responding to the questions I need answered in order to get the biq into shape to be handed off to whoever is going to add in the units, tech tree, etc. (This means you, too, Timerover; I could really use that terrain/resource info) It would also be nice to get a hold of the Bamboo terrain, so I could place it on the map.

do you we have a UU list for the civs?...

It worries me that you're not at least reviewing your own first post, if not skimming the rest of the thread, to remind yourself of the design work that has already been done.

@7Ronin: Thanks for keeping your hand in.