Scottish independence, a lost cause?

[daft]

From the results of the recent Referendum I gather Scots are no longer interested in being an independent nation. Is there a chance Scotland will ever be free again? Did all those people, soldiers and civilians, kings and heroes die in vain?
Or is the modern version of democracy and relative economic equality of English as well as Scottish folk enough to prevent the independence movement in Scotland from succeeding?
Could Scotland support itself in economic terms if it became independent?
Not sure this is a history thread, so please remove it if nec.

 

[Traitorfish]

Scottish independence was a very marginal position for most of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. It's only in the last couple of decades that support for independence has become mainstream, and really only with the independence debate itself and the distilling of positions into "Yes" and "No" that pro-independence has become as ordinary as unionism. A 45% percent turnout for "Yes" was a loss, yes, but it's also an unprecedented high in support for independence, so your charting of the fortunes of Scottish nationalism is entirely back to front.

 

[Domen]

Indeed, British nationalism in Scotland is at least as strong as Scottish.

 

[Plotinus]

Moderator Action: I don't think this is history, so - moved to OT.

 

[kramerfan86]

Honestly it will depend on if England/Britain keep up with all the promises the pro-union side was making when it started looking like independence was a serious threat. If they follow through than yea, Scottish independence will probably die off as a cause. if they start baking off the promises after they won then its not going away and very well could win next time.

 

[Borachio]

Who knows? Though I agree a lot depends on how much autonomy Scotland can achieve within the Union.

The next burning issue will be May's General Election, with UKIP slavering at the heels of Labour and the Conservatives like a hungry rottweiler, and when to have an in-out referendum on the EU.

It's a very similar issue to Scottish independence, imo: in essence, whether the UK should become "independent" from the EU.

 

[Lillefix]

Honestly it will depend on if England/Britain keep up with all the promises the pro-union side was making when it started looking like independence was a serious threat. If they follow through than yea, Scottish independence will probably die off as a cause. if they start baking off the promises after they won then its not going away and very well could win next time.

I don't think so. If they give them more independence they(I assume) will find out they can govern themselves quite well, and then it will snowball. I think Scotland is going indy no matter what.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

From the results of the recent Referendum I gather Scots are no longer interested in being an independent nation. Is there a chance Scotland will ever be free again? Did all those people, soldiers and civilians, kings and heroes die in vain?
Or is the modern version of democracy and relative economic equality of English as well as Scottish folk enough to prevent the independence movement in Scotland from succeeding?
Could Scotland support itself in economic terms if it became independent?
Not sure this is a history thread, so please remove it if nec.

Erm... they are free currently. They joined the Union voluntarily (even if it was mainly motivated by bankruptcy I believe), it was THEIR Royal family that became the monarchy of the entire isle, and they just held a democratic election that would have resulted in them leaving the union again if the majority who live there wanted it. So I'm not sure in what way you think they aren't free, or which soldiers etc died "in vain".

 

[kramerfan86]

I don't think so. If they give them more independence they(I assume) will find out they can govern themselves quite well, and then it will snowball. I think Scotland is going indy no matter what.

I dont think Scotland doubts they can "govern themselves" I believe the fear is moreso the economic effects, and further autonomy wont remove that doubt since even the highest levels of devolution still involve having the pound and access to the UK's trade agreements

 

[Takhisis]

It's a very similar issue to Scottish independence, imo: in essence, whether the UK should become "independent" from the EU.

The politicians in Lahndan made threats about Scotland not being able to remain in the EU if it seceded from the United Kingdom… and then want to hold a referendum on the whole kingdom leaving the EU and taking the Scots out of it too along the way. A bit contradictory, methinks. Will a piecemeal solution like the partition of Ireland work: whatever constituent country that votes against leaving the tyrannical EU can stay in it like dirty loyalists?

 

[AdamCrock]

I'm an expert thing - that m! (because I don't know me an expert by an ancient right of Murphy !) and I say hmmm.... hmmm.... I think ! (sometimes I really do) takesxpert hat I have never seen a Scotsman on a horse !!) ... but uhmm seriosly - take it from the guy that doesn't know a thing - stay united unless You want to be a wuss... seriously , united Ur strong , divided ur a wuss and I can do ....uhmmm .... bad things to You ! xD haha

 

[Borachio]

The politicians in Lahndan made threats about Scotland not being able to remain in the EU if it seceded from the United Kingdom… and then want to hold a referendum on the whole kingdom leaving the EU and taking the Scots out of it too along the way.

True.

But what do we expect from politics? Coherence? Seems a rather extravagant thing to expect, imo.

 

[Kyriakos]

It is always a curious sign to have half of the people not want to vote for independence, when independence historically was gained in far more dangerous manners than the mere threat of some economic hardship in the immediate aftermath.

So i am not sure if Scotland really is much into this whole 'we are our own country' thing. Maybe they are more likely to have 'devo max' or 'we are devo' or something

 

[Yeekim]

when independence historically was gained in far more dangerous manners than the mere threat of some economic hardship in the immediate aftermath.

In these situations, not being independent usually also meant far bigger disadvantage than, er... umm... er... heck, did the separatists have any actual issues besides romantic nationalism?

 

[Kyriakos]

^Yes, although it still is a bit underwhelming to have people vote against 'independence' on account of having some instability for a while. Maybe they don't actually view Scotland as a country by now. Wallace would cry

 

[Traitorfish]

In these situations, not being independent usually also meant far bigger disadvantage than, er... umm... er... heck, did the separatists have any actual issues besides romantic nationalism?

The main claims were than than an independent Scotland would be more egalitarian, that an independent Scotland would be more democratic, and that the Westminster establishment is a wretched hive of scum and villainy that any sane person would want to keep as far away from themselves as possible; the last of which, at least, is pretty incontestable.

Romantic nationalism didn't actually feature very much. The English kept insisting it did, but that's largely because the English didn't understand what's going on but didn't want to admit it. If anything, it was most prominent in English interventions in favour of Union, which to the endless embarrassment of Scottish unionists consisted of rambling appeals to the Queen, Second World War and a shared history of massacring brown people, because, again, the English don't really have any idea what's happening in this country.

There's this enduring belief, in England, that nationalism is a Continental disease which the hill-tribes are tragically vulnerable, but to which the English have total immun- what's that, an old woman is wearing a fancy hat? DROP EVERYTHING IT IS FLAG TIME WHERE'S MY SHINY RED COAT

 

[Takhisis]

True.

But what do we expect from politics? Coherence? Seems a rather extravagant thing to expect, imo.

Well, I've always been an extravagant, happy-go-lucky sort of fella.

In these situations, not being independent usually also meant far bigger disadvantage than, er... umm... er... heck, did the separatists have any actual issues besides romantic nationalism?

I'd like to complement Traitorfish's answer. Why did Estonia leave the Soviet union/Russian Empire then? It's even smaller than Scotland.

 

[Domen]

WHERE'S MY SHINY RED COAT

:


Link to video.


Link to video.

 

[Esmer]

As a reward for the Scots' loyalty to the crown, Firaxis should finally change the English civ into the British civ for Civ VI. It's the least they can do.

 

[Takhisis]

Also, as a reward for their loyalty, the Byzantine and Roman civs should be merged into the Greek one. Konstantinos shall live again!