Esmer
Chieftain
But both Constantinople and Rome are ruled by heathen Barbarians these days, not Greeks.
Scottish independence, a lost cause?
- Thread starter daft
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But both Constantinople and Rome are ruled by heathen Barbarians these days, not Greeks.
BvBPL
Pour Decision Maker
Scottish proponents of independence could always take a page from pro-EU Irishmen and keep holding elections until the electorate gets it right.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
After the clear result of the last referendum, I think a better question should be: does it still makes sense for Scotland to keep its autonomous national team in football and rugby? 
More seriously speaking, I'm well-aware this won't happen ever soon. Even though I'm convinced Brits would gain more of it than what they actually believe.
More seriously speaking, I'm well-aware this won't happen ever soon. Even though I'm convinced Brits would gain more of it than what they actually believe.
Tahuti
Writing Deity
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After the clear result of the last referendum, I think a better question should be: does it still makes sense for Scotland to keep its autonomous national team in football and rugby?
Britain was the founding place of association football. Having a Scottish team was a way for England to compensate with the loneliness it had during the early days of of Association Football, when everyone sucked and even the Dutch pro-team could be defeated by the English amateurs. This is just a matter of heritage. There may be an EU olympic team one day, should the EU ever attain American style federalisation (or perhaps not, since we are the founders of the Olympics as well) and for many other sports that do not originate from Europe, but I doubt an EU football team would ever happen - or would be fun for that matter.
It's really quite tragic if you look at the reasons for why we voted no - terrified pensioners and some sick sense of "loyalism" from morons in the Orange Order and Rangers fans.
I wish a pox on them all, and with the incoming Tory/UKIP government next year, that's exactly what they'll get. I'm moving to Sweden anyway.
I wish a pox on them all, and with the incoming Tory/UKIP government next year, that's exactly what they'll get. I'm moving to Sweden anyway.
SeekTruthFromFacts
King
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Politicians in Madrid and Brussels also made it clear that an independent Scotland would not automatically join the EU.
They were protecting their own interests as well with Catalonia and Flanders both likely to follow Scotland had it been a Yes vote.
SeekTruthFromFacts
King
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By Brussels, I meant the Commission - I haven't seen anything from Belgian officials.
Incidentally, you imply that politicians only protecting their own interests is a bad thing. I agree - which is why I think the world is a better place if English voters look to Scottish political leaders and vice versa.
Most of the EC comments were coming from officials from Spain and Belgium, most notably from the current president Barroso, who is Spanish.
An Italian got involved as well (they have their own independence worries with the north of Italy). The incoming president didn't exactly impress with his comments either, seemingly flip-flopping between pro and anti independence depending on who asked him.
The actual situation is quite complex but there is basically no way that Scotland would have been "thrown out" of the EU. That would have caused a ridiculous amount of trouble for basically zero gain.
Damn, I was always under the impression he was Spanish. Oh well, it's certainly true that the majority of "nay sayers" were either Spanish or Belgian, as those two countries had the most to lose out of Scottish independence. There was also a Finnish guy (Ollie Rehn) who held some kind of EU economic position, but no longer.
Alec Baldwin Syndrome is treatable if you catch it early enough.
It's a real shame I have no idea what you're on about then, I guess.
SeekTruthFromFacts
King
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There's clear precedent on this. E.g. at the list of UN members. The 'stans have their membership dated from 1992 and Slovakia from 1993; they had to apply. Russia (rUSSR) inherited the Soviet membership. Scotland would have to apply for the UN and the EU, even if individual Scots retained EU citizenship for a transitional period.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
On the other hand, there's no reason why EU membership couldn't take effect on Day One of independence. Keeping Scotland out of the EU would cause economic upset without benefit to anybody with the leverage to make it so.
SeekTruthFromFacts
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Of course this would be the best outcome for everyone. But the fact that Scotland's entry is conditional means there's room for bargaining - and since Mr Salmond is such a devoted European, perhaps he should be sharing some of that lovely oil wealth to help his less developed European partners? That's what a Bulgarian or Greek nationalist ought to ask for.
On the flipside, Germany didn't have to reapply to the EU when absorbing East Germany. Algeria didn't lose it's (pre-pre-EU) membership when war broke out with France.
On top of that, no nation has ever been forcibly removed from the EU. No article exists for that purpose, actually.
The deciding factor would have been common sense. Scotland owns (or would have owned) 60% of the EU's oil reserves and 25% of the EU's fishing reserves. There are hundreds of thousands of EU citizens living and working in Scotland (not including Scots), and thousands of EU students taking advantage of our education system. The minute Scotland stopped being part of the EU, what happens to them?
The EU was never going to risk all of that by refusing the democratic will of the Scots people, which is basically the main principle that the EU is founded upon.
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