The Great Lighthouse

[Indiansmoke]

There *is* a way to defend amphibious city razing, by the way. Everyone's pretty creative, so I'm sure you can come up with it.

And if you can't, then for once in our lifetime we can use a civ IV game tip: on water maps, powerful navies are not optional.

Answer: use your own amphibious raid or sink ships. It might be true that you can't garrison and actually defend all of the coastal cities, but if it's come to that you screwed up and deserved the damage. Someone in those games won, correct? It was decided by each team's actions, right?

I am very much against arbitrary bans of actions that are allowed in the game outright. Amphibious attacks are heavily penalized in most cases, and yet remain one of the FEW ways in the entire game where the game isn't heavily biased against a human attacker in a 1 on 1. No walls far less concern over collateral initiative (but not none!), high priority on heavy scouting.

If amphibious raze is banned we might as well start banning more wonders, ban state property, ban bureaucracy, ban elephants, ban catapults. Why not?

Nobody said to ban anything!

The point was that Vikings have an advantage in sea based maps, because amphibious attacks are so hard to defend anyway, let alone when the opponent has 2 move or even 3 move advantage navy.

Tip: A navigation2 galleon with circumnavigation is 7 move unit. In 2 turns (move last attack first) that is 14 tiles...you have lost all your coastal cities before you know anything is comming!

 

[BCLG100]

just for the record....this is from the original cut more crap pitboss thread.

Right but I'm pretty sure we also came up with some other rules for previous pitboss based on non events. At one point we had always war because of the issues with diplomacy but we scrapped idea when it became uninteresting as I am sure no city razing may be scrapped for the next game.

With regards to the 'advantage' the Vikings get, surely this is just an advantage which we have in one area. What about the other teams who have advantages in other areas which are just as potent? Darius for instance with his cheap courthouses and factories. The advantage was only gained for a disadvantage in other areas, the trading post/raider are not much use for empire maintenance for instance and i do think this 'advantage' discussion needs to keep that in mind.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Right but I'm pretty sure we also came up with some other rules for previous pitboss based on non events. At one point we had always war because of the issues with diplomacy but we scrapped idea when it became uninteresting as I am sure no city razing may be scrapped for the next game.

With regards to the 'advantage' the Vikings get, surely this is just an advantage which we have in one area. What about the other teams who have advantages in other areas which are just as potent? Darius for instance with his cheap courthouses and factories. The advantage was only gained for a disadvantage in other areas, the trading post/raider are not much use for empire maintenance for instance and i do think this 'advantage' discussion needs to keep that in mind.

I don't have much else to say here, I think that my point that some details of the map should have been made public before we picked is clear, you might agree or disagree.

I recognize that this is partly my fault for assuming we were going to have a land based map.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Nobody said to ban anything!

The point was that Vikings have an advantage in sea based maps, because amphibious attacks are so hard to defend anyway, let alone when the opponent has 2 move or even 3 move advantage navy.

Tip: A navigation2 galleon with circumnavigation is 7 move unit. In 2 turns (move last attack first) that is 14 tiles...you have lost all your coastal cities before you know anything is comming!

I know this all too well. Even gamespy weak players can pull it off, and I've been on both ends of it.

The dutch are nearly as bad btw, since they have the ability to sink everything and blockade pre-chemistry, and dedicated astro pushes can come very soon. IF IF IF this map isn't balanced, those two civs will have a controlling factor for a fairly large window. Somehow I think we're overreacting a bit. There's plenty of time for identifying the map as unbalanced against the leaders after we play it .

But advantages or not, I'm definitely not in favor of banning anything but glitches and deliberate cheating (aka oracle for multiple techs, etc).

 

[BCLG100]

I don't have much else to say here, I think that my point that some details of the map should have been made public before we picked is clear, you might agree or disagree.

I recognize that this is partly my fault for assuming we were going to have a land based map.

I think that this map may yet have a few more twists so there is a reasonable chance that the shipping thing may not be an issue!

 

[AlphaShard]

I am very much against arbitrary bans of actions that are allowed in the game outright.

And this is why people got upset over the GLH. As you also stated why not take out the other Wonders while were at it?

 

[azzaman333]

And this is why people got upset over the GLH. As you also stated why not take out the other Wonders while were at it?

The map was considered to be unbalanced with it. The map makers are in the best position to know, I'll trust them until we all "know" the map and we can nitpick and criticise specific details.

 

[Robi D]

Wow this issue is still alive!

Maybe we need to get through the turns a bit quicker to give people something else to discuss

Seriously lets face it, how can we have a meaningful debate/discussion/analysis/whatever on the map, the mapmakers choices or what we should or shouldn't have been told before choosing civs or whatever else after 5 turns of the game and seeing 20-30 tiles of the map. All we are working with is assumptions based on very very limited information so any conclusion we may reach is about as useful as looking up at the sky to see what the weather will be like next week.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

And this is why people got upset over the GLH. As you also stated why not take out the other Wonders while were at it?

Removing the GLH was (hopefully!) not arbitrary, but rather done to offset the map setup. Also note that players can not defy this ban ---> there's no rule against TRYING to take the city, or build GLH, or to do anything of that nature. Time will tell whether it was a good idea, but it is very different from restricting non timer-based player actions..

 

[javidbing]

dw just race to paratroopers and drop on the barb city and capture that lighthouse!!

 

[AlphaShard]

Yeah but by the time you get Paratroops you'll have obsoleted the GLH.

 

[obsolete]

There *is* a way to defend amphibious city razing, by the way. Everyone's pretty creative, so I'm sure you can come up with it.

Yes, you do this by following the BLUE CIRCLE recomendations for settling your cities ONE TILE OFF THE COAST. We have the brainiac geniuses at Firaxis to thank for this super-smart city planner. I'm not sure how much they paid that brilliant coder for that, but I'm sure it was worth every penny.

 

[Earthling]

Given how it seems the map turned out I for one am glad no team is the Lanun.

Don't see the issue going anywhere though as we all just have to wait and see and my opinion remains rather uneasy on what's going to happen with the Colossus.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Given how it seems the map turned out I for one am glad no team is the Lanun.

That would be rather overpowered, yeah. 3-5 food regular coast tiles with extra hammers and commerce... let alone the Heroes.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yes, you do this by following the BLUE CIRCLE recomendations for settling your cities ONE TILE OFF THE COAST. We have the brainiac geniuses at Firaxis to thank for this super-smart city planner. I'm not sure how much they paid that brilliant coder for that, but I'm sure it was worth every penny.

And here I was thinking along the lines of razing their cities so they can't produce any ships .

Strategies can largely be done back. I'm not 100% convinced that this is such an uber strategy that everyone is forced to abide by it.

dw just race to paratroopers and drop on the barb city and capture that lighthouse!!

. Too bad you'll obsolete it on your way there!

 

[azzaman333]

And here I was thinking along the lines of razing their cities so they can't produce any ships .

Strategies can largely be done back. I'm not 100% convinced that this is such an uber strategy that everyone is forced to abide by it.



. Too bad you'll obsolete it on your way there!

Gift it to someone who hasn't obsoleted it.

Gotta think outside the box. [_] (this box is more of a cup, but you get the idea)

 

[obsolete]

Gift it to someone who hasn't obsoleted it.

Wasn't this set as pure violation of the rules now? No city gifting with wonders in it.

 

[azzaman333]

Wasn't this set as pure violation of the rules now? No city gifting with wonders in it.

I dunno, to be honest I never bother to read the rules unless someone on another team does something I don't like.

 

[Robi D]

Wasn't this set as pure violation of the rules now? No city gifting with wonders in it.

Not that i recall, but regardless good luck convincing a team to stay in the medieval for the entire game on the off chance you capture the GL so you can exploit its benefits

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Not that i recall, but regardless good luck convincing a team to stay in the medieval for the entire game on the off chance you capture the GL so you can exploit its benefits

The obsoleting tech is corporation, so you can let them go renaissance . But the point stands. By then, the lost commerce from not having corporation might make people a little restless, assuming they're working with you in tech trade. I don't believe any team in this match would be anywhere near bad enough to be duped into such things.