Anti-human bias

Is there any mod to prevent AIs from being so biased against humans ? That is the biggest issue that annoy me in civ 4. I'm tired of endless demands, difficult to bribe AI's into war, while other AI's are always childhood friends sharing technology with each other, ready to gangbang on me. I want to be part of the world, not always the main target.

I'd like to be able to ignore anything a certain civ says. For example, ignore Japan, because they always demand rediculous tribute and I get tired of having to refuse every 20 turns.

afa2000 said:

Is there any mod to prevent AIs from being so biased against humans ? That is the biggest issue that annoy me in civ 4. I'm tired of endless demands, difficult to bribe AI's into war, while other AI's are always childhood friends sharing technology with each other, ready to gangbang on me. I want to be part of the world, not always the main target.

Click to expand...

Check out Solver / Dresden's patch to 3.17 ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=299 )... there were a number of (perhaps unintentional) anti-human bugs fixed...

Demands and such are still part of the game, but one of the bugs fixed above made it such that the AI didn't care what its real attitude towards you was... it always traded with you as Cautious in 3.17. DanF5771 did a great job tracking that down and drove it to resolution.

Another bad one was a pathing bug such that AIs were less likely to attack each other in certain games.

I've enjoyed playing the game a lot more since I started using that patch... and if you don't mind some minor gameplay changes, BetterAI ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=245 ) is the bomb.

To prevent ridiculous AI-AI trading, turn on No Tech Brokering in a Custom Game. They won't be able to take a tech you give them as aid/tribute, and then trade it with everyone else. I think it makes the game a lot more fun, if a bit easier on each difficulty (TheMeInTeam says it alters their behavior greatly, as in they demand a lot more and pursue techs differently--I don't know if it's true, but it's worth checking out). Only other thing I can suggest is that you set them on each other. Bribe them to go to war with each other, to stop trading, to switch to your religion--all just to get them pissed at each other. Trade dangerous techs (i.e. rifling) to someone if you see them outmatched in power, and watch as the war turns a corner; and with NTB on, he won't give rifling away! Maybe this is what you want, but I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse (this has been discussed before).

Basicly the AI civs have bonuses with each other at all the difficulty levels. so they may be warring with each other but due to the hidden bonuses their most hated enemy remains the human player.

Handel said:

Basicly the AI civs have bonuses with each other at all the difficulty levels. so they may be warring with each other but due to the hidden bonuses their most hated enemy remains the human player.

Click to expand...

That's not really true. And if you use the "Unoficial" patch Gattling suggests above, alot of the issues the OP is bugged by will be remedied.

Civ IV: Proof that the machines are taking over

GatlingGun said:

Check out Solver / Dresden's patch to 3.17 ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=299 )... there were a number of (perhaps unintentional) anti-human bugs fixed...

Demands and such are still part of the game, but one of the bugs fixed above made it such that the AI didn't care what its real attitude towards you was... it always traded with you as Cautious in 3.17. DanF5771 did a great job tracking that down and drove it to resolution.

Another bad one was a pathing bug such that AIs were less likely to attack each other in certain games.

I've enjoyed playing the game a lot more since I started using that patch... and if you don't mind some minor gameplay changes, BetterAI ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=245 ) is the bomb.

Click to expand...

tyvm, I'll try it.

Gustavus said:

To prevent ridiculous AI-AI trading, turn on No Tech Brokering in a Custom Game. They won't be able to take a tech you give them as aid/tribute, and then trade it with everyone else. I think it makes the game a lot more fun, if a bit easier on each difficulty (TheMeInTeam says it alters their behavior greatly, as in they demand a lot more and pursue techs differently--I don't know if it's true, but it's worth checking out).

Click to expand...

It's already on, thanks anyways.

Gustavus said:

Only other thing I can suggest is that you set them on each other. Bribe them to go to war with each other, to stop trading, to switch to your religion--all just to get them pissed at each other.

Click to expand...

I usually do that too, but it's not easy, once they are always pleased with each other. In a game that everyone has the same religion, I'm always the main target because if i give up on demands, I fall behind in tech/military. If I dont, I get negative modifiers. I mean, at emperor or higher difficulties. I just want to see AI's demanding from each other as often as they do with me.

Gustavus said:

Trade dangerous techs (i.e. rifling) to someone if you see them outmatched in power, and watch as the war turns a corner; and with NTB on, he won't give rifling away! Maybe this is what you want, but I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse (this has been discussed before).

Click to expand...

Trust me, he is gonna use that troops to DoW on me sooner or later if I dont give them all of my techs, If I dont DoW on his worst enemy (who is always someone pleased or friendly with me), if I dont build 129210928 units, if, if, if ... They do that because they DONT ask tributes to another AI's, just to me.

Yeah, the AI doesn't make demands/requests of other AIs. IMHO this is unfortunate, but it would have been very complicated so I can see why the devs didn't implement it.

I'm sorry? Which anti-human bias ? (I'm not counting bugs, just design stuffs)

JujuLautre,

For starters, diplomatic penalties.

You get a "spy snooping around" penalty if you spy gets caught in enemy territory, yet they get none on the return.
You get a "made an arrogant demant" penalty if you demand something, where as if they demand something from you, you get a penalty if refuse tribute.
Etc.

At the same time, you get diplomatic bonus if you give in to their demand, you get more diplo bonuses than everyone for trade because you trade much more than them, and you don't get any inherent bonus/demerit just because you are an AI leader. Considering all that, I fail to see a bias.
For the spy stuff, obviously they get none in return: you don't give diplomatic scores to the AI, do you? But you're pissed off, the idea is the same. Between AI, they get some demerit just as you do, that's the most important.

For me, the existence of such bonus/penalty is quite obvious. Because no matter what you do, the human and the AI will never act the same way. So you have to find ways to gives diplomatic bonuses/demerits different than those of the AI.

If you think that giving away assembly line for only +1 modifier with ONE civ is something fair, you're right. If you play with 18 civs in a small map like me, you'll see how annoying is when 17 civs keep asking everything from you every turn while they stay pleased with each other.

So you'll choose a few civs to be their . .. .. .. .. .es, while you reject other demands because you just cant please everyone. You'll be pleased with 5 or 6, while cautious or annoyed with 12. Then sooner or later that 1-12 civs will DoW on you. You'll ask for help and your "buddies" will reject because 1 - option is redded, once they are already at war with someone else. 2 - they can't betray their close friends. 3 - you already asked something 50 turns before. 4 - you dont have anything to bribe because in the past you gave all your technologies and now they are way more advanced than you. If they are morons like Catherine, they will DoW on you too even if you are friendly with her.

Oh, yes. It's "cool and fair". I'm sure game would be way more interesting if AI plays with each other the same way they do with me.

So you'll choose a few civs to be their . .. .. .. .. .es, while you reject other demands because you just cant please everyone. You'll be pleased with 5 or 6, while cautious or annoyed with 12. Then sooner or later that 1-12 civs will DoW on you. You'll ask for help and your "buddies" will reject because 1 - option is redded, once they are already at war with someone else. 2 - they can't betray their close friends. 3 - you already asked something 50 turns before. 4 - you dont have anything to bribe because in the past you gave all your technologies and now they are way more advanced than you. If they are morons like Catherine, they will DoW on you too even if you are friendly with her.

Click to expand...

Yea.. that's why maps with lots of opponents are tough. I usually lose those, but easily win standard maps with 7-8 opponents. It's because when there is a lot of opponents, most AI's are about equal power and they tend to dogpile a lot while aggressive AI's have a hidden modifier that makes them pleased.

I have no problem in giving away Assembly line if I feel I make some good business. Sometimes a +1 diplo is of much higher value than a tech. Also, you give an extreme example: aren't you pleased when the AI comes threatening you into giving him, I don't know, theatre ?

As for your other example, I also fear it is a little bit extreme; I mean, you search for it: on a small map with 18 civ, for sure you will have more leaders asking stuff from you (there are more of them), and for sure someone will DOW you one time or another (there is no space); also, wouldn't you do the same if you have no space to expand ? And when an AI DOWs an other one and you had plan to DOW on of the two, won't you do so? And when an AI asks you "please come help me", Do you always send stacks to indeed help him like you would expect them to help you when you are attacked?
I still don't see any problem with "anti-human bias".

Oh, yes. It's "cool and fair". I'm sure game would be way more interesting if AI plays with each other the same way they do with me.

Click to expand...

Problem is it cannot. You will never act the same way as the AI does, and it will never have the same level of intelligence as you which permits you to avoid DOWs and make friends. The difference in behaviour is something necessary. Otherwise, it would be too easy for the human to manipulate politics.
Or perhaps you would be glad to have an AI which acts as humans do? DOW at friendly without any warning just because "you are in my way" ? Speaking for myself, I don't. And I am sure lots of players feel the same way.

Gustavus said:

To prevent ridiculous AI-AI trading, turn on No Tech Brokering in a Custom Game. They won't be able to take a tech you give them as aid/tribute, and then trade it with everyone else. I think it makes the game a lot more fun, if a bit easier on each difficulty (TheMeInTeam says it alters their behavior greatly, as in they demand a lot more and pursue techs differently--I don't know if it's true, but it's worth checking out). Only other thing I can suggest is that you set them on each other. Bribe them to go to war with each other, to stop trading, to switch to your religion--all just to get them pissed at each other. Trade dangerous techs (i.e. rifling) to someone if you see them outmatched in power, and watch as the war turns a corner; and with NTB on, he won't give rifling away! Maybe this is what you want, but I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse (this has been discussed before).

Click to expand...

Actually I said that they won't adapt and generally all tech the same thing too much or bottleneck being unable to trade for pre-reqs to get reasonable value in their eyes. It's possible for the human to abuse this greatly.

It's still an option worth considering though - I advocate trying most settings at least to see if they're any fun to a player.

Back to OP topic: AI bias against the human is necessary. If they treated us same as each other we could reel off ridiculous easy UN wins using "peaceweights", have perfect diplo constantly, and not responding as they do now to our demands.

A lot of this is just experience - the more a player has, the less the AI feels "biased" against us...although the annoyance related to incessant demands never does go away unless you force that civ to exit stage right .

I will give you an recent example what the anti-human bias is (sorry fan boys):
In my recent game Isabella just declared a war to Hannibal. At the same turn 3 of my privateers were blocking Gilgamesh close to Hannibal-Gilgamesh border. Next turn I see I see a fleet of 6+ Hannibal frigates coming from the opposite side (Hannibal had couple of island towns there). So I try to run away and all the 3 privateers move in group... only to finish their move near the Isabella huge fleet from 15+ galleons and caravels (the troops were allready disembarked). The same turn the Hannibal frigates appear close to me and to the Isabella fleet (the AI always pursue the ships if ir has superiority)...
And what happens? Instead of simply running Isabella's galleons start to attack the privateers! Galleons first and then the caravels. Well, those privateers were pretty developped so they shredded a lot of the galleons and 3-4 of the caravels before dying.
What happened next I don't know but I guess the remaining Isabella caravels and the already wounded galleons were killed by the Hannibal frigates.
So because of the hardcoded anti-human bias (which doesn't exist according to the fanboys - they will say the AI just was in suicide mood) Isabella lost her whole warfleet and probably she will lose the war too because her troops will be quickly decimated without reinforcement.

that has nothing to do with so called anti-human bias. AI simply attacks privateers on sight, regardless they're human or not. that's it. I suggest you play some more to improve your general understanding of the game, or better enter a social club or something to improve your manners.

the AI was in a suicide mood

Handel, since you are so sure there is a hardcoded anti-human bias for this situation, why don't you show it ?

JujuLautre said:

I have no problem in giving away Assembly line if I feel I make some good business. Sometimes a +1 diplo is of much higher value than a tech. Also, you give an extreme example: aren't you pleased when the AI comes threatening you into giving him, I don't know, theatre ?

Click to expand...

Drama, you mean ? No, I dont like giving anything because it lets other AIs become more advanced ("i fear you become too advanced"), so they'll become more powerful, which means I'll be the target anyways in the future. I cant demand anything higher than 300 beakers at marathon speed (they wont give it to me even if I'm 10000 times stronger than them), but they keep demanding everything from me every turn, even if it costs 21000 beakers, that's ridiculous.

JujuLautre said:

As for your other example, I also fear it is a little bit extreme; I mean, you search for it: on a small map with 18 civ, for sure you will have more leaders asking stuff from you (there are more of them), and for sure someone will DOW you one time or another (there is no space);

Click to expand...

Yes, there are more of them and yes, someone will DoW on on me, i have no problem with that. The whole point you miss is that they dont ask anything from each other, so they'll stay easily pleased with everyone, but not me. So, I'm always the main target, instead of just part of the world.

JujuLautre said:

also, wouldn't you do the same if you have no space to expand ? And when an AI DOWs an other one and you had plan to DOW on of the two, won't you do so?

Click to expand...

Yes, I do, but not always. I like to roleplay sometimes.

JujuLautre said:

And when an AI asks you "please come help me", Do you always send stacks to indeed help him like you would expect them to help you when you are attacked?
I still don't see any problem with "anti-human bias".

Click to expand...

Problem is they can ask for help when I'm already at war, but I can't if they are. They also don't ask for other AIs to help in their wars if that AIs are already at war. I'll take a screenshot next time, so you'll see what I'm talking about.

JujuLautre said:

Problem is it cannot. You will never act the same way as the AI does, and it will never have the same level of intelligence as you which permits you to avoid DOWs and make friends. The difference in behaviour is something necessary. Otherwise, it would be too easy for the human to manipulate politics.
Or perhaps you would be glad to have an AI which acts as humans do? DOW at friendly without any warning just because "you are in my way" ? Speaking for myself, I don't. And I am sure lots of players feel the same way.

Click to expand...

So, let's just get rid of the diplomacy system. Diplomacy was always more important than wars, but it's not true in game. I could explain better if my english wasn't so poor, but diplomacy system could be much better. For example, human or AI player Dow on friendly should get a huge negative modifier from ALL players. Can you imagine USA DoW on UK while the world thinks that's the same as USA DoW on Iraq ? Chile Dow on Brasil because they didnt give advanced flight to them ? Anyways, I could live with that in game if AI just did the same with each other.

TheMeInTeam said:

Back to OP topic: AI bias against the human is necessary. If they treated us same as each other we could reel off ridiculous easy UN wins using "peaceweights", have perfect diplo constantly, and not responding as they do now to our demands.

Click to expand...

True. I usually turn off diplomatic victory, but I know it could be exploitable. IMO, the whole diplomacy system should be revamped. Making friends should be more than just accepting every demands. Maybe a diplomacy bar, I dont know. I agree that tributes are part of the game, but it should not be the diplomacy core, only a payment for protection. Civ IV is almost perfect to me, it would be if diplomacy and espionage systems change (now I turn espionage off).

TheMeInTeam said:

A lot of this is just experience - the more a player has, the less the AI feels "biased" against us...although the annoyance related to incessant demands never does go away unless you force that civ to exit stage right .

Click to expand...

I dont like to feel obligated to get rid of every AI just to see them stop being so annoying. Sometimes I dont even want to win, I can have fun in a multipolar game I'm not the strongest, but I have friends, that's why I play with 18 civs in higher difficulties. However it's not always possible because that "friends" wont help me if they are already at war or if they are friendly with my enemies, although I get negative modifiers for trading with their enemies.