MilesBeyond's Big List of Balance Tweaks

So this is just a list I came up with of things in the game that could stand to be rebalanced a bit. I'm not addressing UBs/UUs at all, as that would be a massive undertaking (changes to base buildings and units would also apply to their respective UBs/UUs though). I'm not nerfing anything, my goal here instead is to take stuff that no one ever builds and make it worth building, even if it's only situational.

Only proposed changes will be listed, anything unlisted is assumed to remain the same as before (e.g. Great Wall's ability to keep barbs out of borders is not mentioned, therefore it remains, unchanged)

World Wonders:

Great Wall:
No GG bonus
Gains +25% defense in all cities

Shwedagon Paya:
Available with Meditation (was Meditation and Aesthetics)
Cost: 400 (was 450)

Temple of Artemis:
One free Specialist (was one free Priest)

Chichen Itza:
No defense bonus
+100% GG emergence worldwide
Cost: 350 (was 500)

Angkor Wat:
+2 hammers from Priests (was +1)
+2 Priest slots in all cities (was +3 Priest slots in wonder's city)
Cost: 400 (was 500)

Hagia Sophia:
2 free Engineers
2 Engineer slots

Cost: 400 (was 500)

Versailles:

Cost: 300 (was 800)

The Pentagon:

Cost: 800 (was 1250), double production /w Stone

Cristo Redentor:

Available with Steam Power (was Radio)
Double production /w Stone (was /w SPI trait)

Space Elevator:

Available with Satellites (was Satellites and Robotics)
Cost: 1500 (was 2000)

3 Gorges Dam

Available with Refrigeration (was Plastics)
Double production /w Aluminium (was none)


I switched the bonuses of Great Wall and Chichen Itza to hopefully make the latter more appealing (also note that GG bonus is now worldwide, instead of just in friendly territory), while the former becomes a greater boon to REXers. Making the Paya available earlier and for cheaper makes it more useful - Theocratic HA rushes, anyone? ToA was actually more often a liability because it meant polluting your GPP. Now it's more interesting.

Angkor Wat was always a niche wonder, for Priest economies: I figured I'd keep it that way, but turbocharge it a bit. Hagia Sophia is now the Great Library of Engineers. Both of these wonders I'm a little unsure about the changes.

Versailles received a MASSIVE cost drop. It provides the same bonus as Forbidden Palace, but for, get this, FOUR TIMES the hammers. Yeah, no thanks.

Pentagon got a similar treatment: Its cost was just too high to justify building it.

The final three wonders simply came too late to be of any use. Space Elevator still probably is, but slightly earlier combined with a lower cost might make it more viable for Space Race. So I moved them up in the tech tree a bit (or, in the case of CR, a lot).


National Wonders:

Red Cross:
All units built here gain March promotion (was Medic I)

Everyone's got plenty of Medics by the time Medicine rolls around, so it was useless. March might make it more helpful.


City Improvements:

Castle:
No longer requires Walls
Obsolete with Steam Power (was Economics)

Grocer:
Cost: 120 (was 150)

Observatory:
Cost: 100 (was 150)

Customs House:
Cost: 130 (was 180)

Hospital:
Cost: 150 (was 200)

Laboratory:
Available with Mass Media (was Computers)

Nuclear Plant:
Effects of meltdown reduced to generating some Fallout


Mostly just lowering costs to make certain buildings more appealing. The Observatory was the biggest offender, IMHO, as it was actually weaker than the Library, for almost double the cost. I'm sure I could include a few more buildings in here. I deliberately left out anything that was required for a NW (except the Hospital). Banks are a bit too hammer-heavy but they're still going to be built left, right and centre to pave the way for Wall Street so no problems there.

Units:

Trireme:
Requires Bronze Working (was Metal Casting) and Sailing

Explorer:
Can explore rival territory

Ironclad:
+100% vs Transports, 3 movement (was 2), treats coast in friendly territory as roads

Mech Infantry:
Requires Plastics (was Robotics)


I tried to take some of the most useless units and make them better. Why Trireme was ever moved up to MC in the first place is beyond me.

Making the Ironclad useful is a really difficult task, so I settled for some sort of coastal defender.

Explorer I'm really unsure of, but it's the only thing I could think of to make the unit worth building outside of Terra maps.

There's still a lot of work to be done with units, especially Modern/Future units (I've never even BUILT a Stealth Destroyer), but this is a start.



So, this is what I've got so far. Some of these changes don't make sense historically (Cristo Redentor and Ironclad are the two worst offenders) but I will take gameplay balance over historical accuracy any day.

So... Any thoughts?

ptw

I agree with much of this, but its long and I'm busy and I've never played multi.

You might want to think more about why certain things aren't used and look for solutions based on that rather than make arbitary changes which risk causing serious imbalances (Ankore Wat ). Some of what you have suggested seems fine however.

Ankore Wat is strong enough (if your willing to use it its actually a pretty powerful wonder that makes Priests the strongest specialist), boosting it with another hammer is going to tip it OTT (3, 1 isn't far off a settled GEngs 3, 3, I dont think I need to explain why priest slots across all cities would make this even worse!). A better change might be to look for a way to make GProphets more attractive as GP vs GS is the main reason this wonder isn't very popular.

For me the reasons against building ToA are that a) its very early, comes with a dubious early tech and competes with important early builds, and b) letting an AI build it allows for higher GM trade mission yields. The wonder gives the second most GPP of any in the game, so its not that bad, the priest being changed to choice of specialist may help a little but I doubt it will be much, making GProphets more attractive would be another way to accomplish the same. It may be better to just delay the wonder to a later tech if you really see a need for players to build it often.

Versailles received a MASSIVE cost drop. It provides the same bonus as Forbidden Palace, but for, get this, FOUR TIMES the hammers. Yeah, no thanks.

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Again, this isn't addressing the reasons this wonder isn't built. Those are that Divine Right sucks more than 9 times out of 10, and allowing a distant AI to build it for capture is usually better than building it relatively cose to your capital. By itself your change *may* help a tiny amount, but you would have better luck looking at the wider DR tech, to make the conditions to allow building the wonder more viable before changing the wonder itself too much.

The final three wonders simply came too late to be of any use. Space Elevator still probably is, but slightly earlier combined with a lower cost might make it more viable for Space Race. So I moved them up in the tech tree a bit (or, in the case of CR, a lot).

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Space Elevators problem wasn't being late so much as coming with a tech that was strictly out of the way for space victories, a move to an earlyish space race tech (like Satellites) seems fine, personally I would just change it to whatever it was in vanilla where it was good without being OTT (may have even been Sats, I don't have a clue). This change actually makes sense

I see no reason to move Cristo Redentor. Its strong enough to make it a near no brainer if you get that far into the game, which is exactly what you would expect of such a late game wonder, moving it forward is likely to make it too strong.
The Spiritual bonus by the way is to give Spiritual leaders more of an incentive to actually build the thing, seeing as they only get some of the benefit.

Theres nothing wrong with 3GD as it is, it would be nonsensical to move it away from the tech allowing Hydro Plants imo .

Mostly just lowering costs to make certain buildings more appealing. The Observatory was the biggest offender, IMHO, as it was actually weaker than the Library, for almost double the cost. I'm sure I could include a few more buildings in here. I deliberately left out anything that was required for a NW (except the Hospital). Banks are a bit too hammer-heavy but they're still going to be built left, right and centre to pave the way for Wall Street so no problems there.

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While i'm not sure how the proposed changes will effect the game (other than Customs houses which will still be pretty useless . That things problem lies in the devs overrating modifier bonuses) you should consider that hammers now are worth more than hammers later forcing an inflating cost on the same effects for balance purposes. The 150 Observatory may well be cheaper than the 90 Library when you take into account the fact that cities will be bigger and will be much more likely to have a forge and maybe OR, meaning theres a lot more hammers available to build it.And this is going to be much more pronounced for the later buildings like Hostpitals which will likely see a +100% modifier with huge, very productive cities.

Nuke Plant obviously needs a major fix, though i'm not convinced a meltdown risk has any place. Coal related incidents are a vastly larger problem IRL, yet aren't included at all. Even without a meltdown risk Nuke Plants are likely to need a further boost due to their cost and tech requirements compared to Coal Plants.

I tried to take some of the most useless units and make them better. Why Trireme was ever moved up to MC in the first place is beyond me.

Making the Ironclad useful is a really difficult task, so I settled for some sort of coastal defender.

Explorer I'm really unsure of, but it's the only thing I could think of to make the unit worth building outside of Terra maps.

There's still a lot of work to be done with units, especially Modern/Future units (I've never even BUILT a Stealth Destroyer), but this is a start.

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Change to Trireme is sensible. Ironclads are a toughy, IRL only the earliest ones weren't ocean going so maybe it could have a role as a slw oceangoing warship...
Explorers aren't even all that useful on terra maps ( they get eaten by barbs), especially if you play with huts on where they can't even pop huts as they will all be defended by this point, your better off using spies . Not sure what to do with them myself but free sentry promo with ability to attack (and therefore pillage) may make them useful as eyes/raiders for both peaceful and military uses.
Late era units are going to be a mess to make real differences too, as nukes, aircraft and heavy artillery rule the game to the point of making anything later pretty pointless.

MilesBeyond said:

Angkor Wat:
+2 hammers from Priests (was +1)
+2 Priest slots in all cities (was +3 Priest slots in wonder's city)
Cost: 400 (was 500)

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Now it's just an OP niche instead of a pretty good niche

MilesBeyond said:

Nuclear Plant:
Effects of meltdown reduced to generating some Fallout

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or just remove it altogether

MilesBeyond said:

Explorer:
Can explore rival territory

Mech Infantry:
Requires Plastics (was Robotics)

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Explorers... would still suck... yeah, what gpstage said

I think it's going just too far to move Mechs off of robotics... make them an extremely more desireable unit, boss against aircraft and good normally even against final-era units. Also make robotics cheaper

I like the idea of March for Red Cross.

MilesBeyond said:

World Wonders:

Great Wall:
No GG bonus
Gains +25% defense in all cities

Chichen Itza:
No defense bonus
+100% GG emergence worldwide
Cost: 350 (was 500)

These changes are fine, I guess. I personally don't think you've made the Chichen Itza wonder more worth building though, though it isn't any LESS worth it, since I never build it, ever. Ever. Building a wall in one city is often of far more value than the base Chichen Itza wonder, so w/e.

Shwedagon Paya:
Available with Meditation (was Meditation and Aesthetics)
Cost: 400 (was 450)
Sounds good to me. I always thought it came too late. FR is the only thing it ever even gives you access to for more than a handful of turns otherwise.

Temple of Artemis:
One free Specialist (was one free Priest)
Sure. It's always giving you GM GPP so that free specialist is only so useful, but I think ghpstage is right. It's in an awkward place tech-wise, and only the AI could/would/should (depending on difficulty) build it. Moving it to a little later (aesthetics?) would make it more likely for the human to be able to race for it.

Angkor Wat:
+2 hammers from Priests (was +1)
+2 Priest slots in all cities (was +3 Priest slots in wonder's city)
Cost: 400 (was 500)
This is too strong. Either make GProphets more useful, which I would imagine would be the hard way of doing it (either that or the innovative creative way that no one has atm), or just make it give +1 hammers and +1 gold. Though even that would be pretty strong.

Hagia Sophia:
2 free Engineers
2 Engineer slots
This is too strong. Theology requires only writing and monotheism. The extra hammers combined with reduced cost alone would be strong (if you can keep it around for 100 turns, it is "free" in a sense), even without the extra highly-desirable GPP.

Cost: 400 (was 500)

Versailles:

Cost: 300 (was 800)
Sure. Unlike GHPStage, I think if you make the wonders that DR unlocks more desirable DR becomes more desirable, solving the problem he sees.

The Pentagon:

Cost: 800 (was 1250), double production /w Stone
Indifferent. Sure

Cristo Redentor:

Available with Steam Power (was Radio)
Double production /w Stone (was /w SPI trait)
This is too early for its power. It is strong if fully leveraged. The reason it is not built is because it's late, not because it is weak. You can make it a bit earlier, but that is a lot earlier. I can build Christo Redentor before SciMeth in this set-up, when SciMeth is 3 techs behind radio (Printing Press (with chemistry or astronomy) > SciMeth > Physics > Electricity > Radio). Printing press also leads to rep-parts (which is why I threw it in above), and rep-parts to steam power with chemistry. So radio is a minimum of 4 techs after printing press, and steam-power is down another route, but approximately equal to 2 techs past printing press. So even bee-lining, this is 2 techs earlier, and if not bee-lining, this could be more than 12 techs earlier. As GHPStage said, the SPI reduction is because it affects SPI leaders less than others, and it also just kind of makes sense when you consider what the Christo Redentor actually is.

Space Elevator:

Available with Satellites (was Satellites and Robotics)
Cost: 1500 (was 2000)
Sure. apparently it was worse than useless before, actually slowing you down when you know what you are doing.

3 Gorges Dam

Available with Refrigeration (was Plastics)
Double production /w Aluminium (was none)
I think GHPStage is right that it should stay with regular hydro dams; however, you can of course just move hydro dams. And with that in mind, and the thought to me that there is no reason that hydro dam need plastics (hydro dams predate plastic...), just move them both to industrialism. You might actually consider not building coal plants when 3GD is only 1 tech away.

National Wonders:

Red Cross:
All units built here gain March promotion (was Medic I)
I like this, though I'm still not sure it's enough to make me build it.

City Improvements:

Castle:
No longer requires Walls
Obsolete with Steam Power (was Economics)
I think it should obsolete with walls. Rifling, in that case.

Grocer:
Cost: 120 (was 150)
Sure, I guess. I don't really have an opinion about this one.

Observatory:
Cost: 100 (was 150)
On a watery map, where you bee-lined astro for its military and trade bonuses, having an even-cheaper observatory makes a good strategy even better. On non-watery maps, where astro is far less important, your empire should be advanced enough to be able to handle the cost. Remember, it's still 3/4 the cost of a university and comes with a slot the uni does not have (remember, libraries employ scientists, not universities! lol), so compared to that, it's cheapish.

Customs House:
Cost: 130 (was 180)
Indifferent. It could probably even be cheaper and still not be worth it due to opportunity cost. It just doesn't add enough. Even with the GLH, it STILL probably wouldn't be worth it, even at this reduced cost.

Hospital:
Cost: 150 (was 200)
Sure.

Laboratory:
Available with Mass Media (was Computers)
Why did you place it on dead-end mass media?

Nuclear Plant:
Effects of meltdown reduced to generating some Fallout
Sure. It's meltdown effect, cost and lateness guarantee I never, ever build it. Even this will not change my mind, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

Units:

Trireme:
Requires Bronze Working (was Metal Casting) and Sailing
I like this change.

Explorer:
Can explore rival territory
This is good too. Could be situationally useful, and makes sense "logically." He could even have his strength boosted. I don't think he should be able to attack and pass through unopened borders, similar to how a caravel can't blockade.

Ironclad:
+100% vs Transports, 3 movement (was 2), treats coast in friendly territory as roads
What does "like roads" mean? 3x movement? It probably only needs one or the other movement bonus, if that's what it means.

Mech Infantry:
Requires Plastics (was Robotics)
That's only 1 tech after tanks and marines. That would make tanks' and marines' short window REALLY short, and essentially would make nuke play the only strategy. It's stil the best strategy right now, but it really would make it the only strategy, because of the AI's super cheap upgrade costs/now-super-short-window-of-tanks. Those MI have interception too, so even tanks + planes would be quelled. Nuke time!

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Apparently writing everything in the quote window is no good. Have to type at least 5 chars after.

Space Elevators problem wasn't being late so much as coming with a tech that was strictly out of the way for space victories, a move to an earlyish space race tech (like Satellites) seems fine, personally I would just change it to whatever it was in vanilla where it was good without being OTT (may have even been Sats, I don't have a clue). This change actually makes sense

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The Space Elevator Required Robotics in Vanilla too, It just made more sense to build it as Robotics unlocked S.S Docking Bay. So it's not something you can solve without changing the Tech Tree.

MilesBeyond said:

Castle:
No longer requires Walls
Obsolete with Steam Power (was Economics)

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There is a problem with Castles, but I think they obsolete at Economics to prevent you from double-stacking the trade routes from Castles and Economics. It's not completely arbitrary. I would rather suggest making them cheaper.

Agree with pretty much all criticisms, but want ti mention that the GG.boost is definitely worth it.
And ironclads is ridiculous, IMO there fine as they are (they suck,but there's a point where you can just ignore it.

traius said:

Sure. Unlike GHPStage, I think if you make the wonders that DR unlocks more desirable DR becomes more desirable, solving the problem he sees.

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Making the wonders themselves more desirable is of course one way of making DR more attractive, my problem is that even with such a cost reduction this change to Versailles it wouldn't come close to making DR worth getting by itself so something else needs to be done.

(Pro)Peanut_P said:

The Space Elevator Required Robotics in Vanilla too, It just made more sense to build it as Robotics unlocked S.S Docking Bay. So it's not something you can solve without changing the Tech Tree.

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Thinking about it some more. It might just be better to move the Docking Bay back to Robotics, as the current changes proposed would leave Robotics, which was already a little used tech dead end tech, with nothing but Missile Cruisers....

I like how nobody pointed out how broken Hagia Sophia would be .

2 engineer slots and 2 engineers on top of that, it's already a high-powered earlygame tech? Sudden people would be going out of their way to oracle theo chop this sucker out every freaking game! Up to 12 engineer gpp from one wonder early AND it pays returns in hammer cost.

Theo is a powerful trade tech as-is, and already has 1 very strong wonder on it.

AW would be absolutely ridiculous if buffed that far. ToA would be pretty darned good with that buff.

Yeah, like I said in the OP, Angkor Wat and Hagia Sophia were both ones that I was really uncertain about. AW works as is for a Priest econ, I suppose, but it's still built a bit too rarely.

If the Hagia Sophia was halved (one free Engineer, one Engineer slot) would that be a bit more reasonable? Another option is I remember someone suggesting elsewhere that it could unlock all Labour civics - useless outside of running early Emancipation, which would actually be extraordinarily powerful.


I agree with DR just being a crappy tech in general. The only way I could think of to fix it would be to make it mandatory in order to research Nationalism, and I think that would create more problems than it would solve. I still really like cheap Versailles, though; even if it doesn't make it more appealing to humans, at least the AI, who will inevitably build it, won't be sinking 800 hammers into it.

Cristo Redentor comments are fair, I suppose keeping that one where it is makes more sense. I'm still in favour of an earlier 3GD, however. I feel as though it needs to come earlier to really have an impact. At Plastics, you've already built what you want. With Refrigeration, it's only one tech away from Sushi, so a logical step. I suppose moving Hydro Plants there or nearby would make more sense too

TheMeInTeam said:

I like how nobody pointed out how broken Hagia Sophia would be .

2 engineer slots and 2 engineers on top of that, it's already a high-powered earlygame tech? Sudden people would be going out of their way to oracle theo chop this sucker out every freaking game! Up to 12 engineer gpp from one wonder early AND it pays returns in hammer cost.

Theo is a powerful trade tech as-is, and already has 1 very strong wonder on it.

AW would be absolutely ridiculous if buffed that far. ToA would be pretty darned good with that buff.

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Well... I did (?)

traius said:

Well... I did (?)

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Indeed, I missed it as I generally just graze over quotes.

For some reason I thought the Hagia Sophia CAME with steam power, not obsoleted with it...
That was probably the source of much of my confusion over it.
Indeed, in spite of knowing it was built IRL by Justin

What does Karadoc have to say?

Reducing the cost is unnecessary IMHO if you are also boosting the wonder.

IND civilizations won't think twice about building expensive wonders, add an enabling resource to the equation and... well I think that's why some of them are so costly.

"I'm not nerfing anything, my goal here instead is to take stuff that no one ever builds and make it worth building"

Can I assume then you intend the GW change as a buff? I already consider GW in the top 4 wonder tier (along with mids and TGL^2). However, adding defense to cities would make it more logical (given that it's a wall) rather than + GG emergence. The main obstacle to building GW is that it goes super early, not that it sucks. It just requires stone in BFC or be nearby for a good 2nd city to settle on stone.

I like the idea of making the priest (and therefore super specialist) economy stronger. +2 to all priests seems OP though. The problem isn't that +1 production on priests is bad, it's that it comes pretty late and priest economy is bad. You could rework more priest buffs between Stonehenge (early GP pts) and Temple of Artemis, except that they also, rather awkwardly, have monuments and +100% trade route bonus.

Tentatively:
- Switch positions in tech tree of ToA and Sweddy, thoughts on both of these were briefly mentioned. Sweddy comes to late to be useful, ToA comes too early for +100% trade routes to matter, and is always just gobbled up by the AI. This position also puts it in on a straight path to AngkorwaT
-ToA to also add +1g to priests, this is a buff to priests pretty early which fits into it's identity as a religious/trade building.
-Stonehenge to add a slot for priests.
-Angkor Wat to stay the same, but instead of +3 priests in capital be +2 priests in all cities.

Status quo: Stonehenge is the 2nd most useless wonder in the game, and priest specialists are horrible.
After changes Stonehenge now allows even more for a super early great priest, and a kickstart to the priest economy, which now might have a future because it could synergize quite well with ToA and AngkorwaT, which now are on a sensible tech path, and ToA is late enough on a low priority AI tech that the human could realistically build it.

Parthenon should be a little cheaper to build, or alternatively increase the GP%.

Statue of Zeus could be fixed too. I'm not an expert on how war weariness works, but I'm under the impression it basically doesn't matter at all to computers on high levels, so it's useless in single player, except to deny from AI. Instead, it should also decrease the owner's war weariness, so people might build it.

I agree with customs house being cheaper, disagree with grocer, and strongly disagree with making observatories cheaper. Redcross is bad, but making it give the March promotion doesn't mesh with it being the Red Cross oO.

Good changes to trireme/nuclear plants/Versaille/Space elevator, and probably to ironclads. Probably should buff muskets while we're at it.

Lastly I agree with the consensus that you'd be making Hagia Sophia OP.

One way of improving priests would be to improve the effects of shrines, perhaps making holy cities capable of spreading religions to cities that already have a religion once the shrine is built. Ths would also help improve the value of DR and other later religions but may cause Free Religion happiness to need a tweak.

How exactly is Stonehenge the second most useless wonder (in a field including versailles ToA and space elevator)?!