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1.0.0.62 Patch: AI /worse/ at trade

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Chibiabos, Oct 23, 2010.

  1. Chibiabos

    Chibiabos Prince

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    When the AI is puling in 100 GPT, 9 GPT was not too much to ask at all for a luxury resource. Now it only offers 3-4. Not worth it at all!
     
  2. Chibiabos

    Chibiabos Prince

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    Gee, let me think, SURVIVAL maybe? If you snub a rival civ from a fair trade deal, isn't it a lot more likely they're gonna come take it by force then?

    There's no "kinda sense" at all there -- in fact it is rather suicidal. Don't make the superpower angry with insulting deals when they could steamroll you.
     
  3. knugen

    knugen Chieftain

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    Oct 7, 2006
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    I've found it much better just to ask for a lump sum, wich maximum seem to be 225 gold. They refuse to pay 5 gold per turn anyway 5*45=225, and also only they lose by declaring war on me.
     
  4. dorn

    dorn Chieftain

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    The reason you can't trade is because you aren't opening your borders. The two are linked. You have to kiss their ass with stuff like friendship agreements and secret pacts to raise their relations with you. You didn't think that stuff was there for window dressing did you?

    Also some of you are overreacting. 2:1 trades is overkill but the AI doesn't actually care if it's surplus or not. It just goes and picks two of whatever you have without thought to whether or not it's surplus.
     
  5. Silvis

    Silvis Chieftain

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    Oct 3, 2010
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    So there is a way to actually get the AI to like you? I haven't had a single AI minus the City States that I bribe even mention that they are friends with me. Is this based on actual tests or are you making it up? It would be good to hear that diplomacy has its own strategy to and your logic makes sense even though I didn't catch it before.

    That doesn't make sense to me. That should be corrected if it is the case. The only time a player and therefore an AI player should want surplus is if they have satisfied the need for all other Luxury Resources.... or it could be they have some plan to trade it to an ally of theirs. Either way, there should be a way to track it for strategic reasons.
     
  6. GlobularFoody

    GlobularFoody Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
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    This is change seems thoughtless to me, I just experienced in my first game since patching and it really feels like all Firaxis wants us to do is kill the other civs. I really don't want play anymore if the AI is going to be this annoying. I'm not sure why Jon Shafer thought that all elements of Civ that weren't combat needed to be axed but if he keeps this up there won't be any one left to care about paying for DLC or even expansions.
     
  7. lschnarch

    lschnarch Emperor

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    Well, as I said elsewhere, this game is about punishment.

    You're getting punished for each and everything, so why not getting punished for trying to trade?

    You are getting punished for having cities, you are getting punished for being successful in war, you are getting punished for obtaining a new social policy...

    Others claim that the AI is looking for open borders to spy about your defenses.

    In this context it makes sense to have to have open borders to get good deals:
    You will be punished for trading by exposing your defense to the trading "partner".

    As far as I see it, this fits into the general concept.
     
  8. dorn

    dorn Chieftain

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    Absolutely. I've tried bringing it up before but apparently if there's no ++ or --- crap for people to look at they just don't want to try and figure it out.

    If you reject the AI on stuff like open borders and pacts though then you are basically losing a chance for ++'s. Hell from what I can tell the diplomacy system is very much like it's always been. I'd say most people can't get used to it because religion is gone and most of them thought religion = diplomacy.

    I think you misunderstood me. The AI doesn't care if YOU the player have surplus or not in the trade window. It just says "I want this give it to me". It doesn't assign some larger value to items you have no surplus of. It probably SHOULD so it can evaluate the value of denying you a luxury but I seriously doubt it does so.
     
  9. Chibiabos

    Chibiabos Prince

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    That is false. Open borders and friendly relations do not improve the AI's trading with you at all. The AI does not want to trade, they seem to want you to get their surplus resources only through war.
     
  10. dorn

    dorn Chieftain

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    Just because it isn't happening for you doesn't make it false. Have you considered that you're just pissing them off or that it's simply unwise for them to trade with you?

    Let's be real here after all. If the AI was smart then diplomacy would be more about stopping them from ganging up on you than trading in the first place.

    Edit: Also read my earlier post. It's definitely true that the AI is expecting too much in trades right now. That doesn't have anything to do with diplomacy not working though.
     
  11. Chibiabos

    Chibiabos Prince

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    It is false because I was getting the same exact insulting trade offers from AIs that were pissy with me as I was from an AI I was in good relations with, dorn. Based on knowing that, you appear to have made up your claim without researching it with the current 1.0.0.62 patch this thread is about.
     
  12. Uncle_Joe

    Uncle_Joe Prince

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    Sep 9, 2005
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    /shrug.

    I haven't seen the AI settle for too many 1 for 1s, but it has done a few since the patch. But generally I can get away with trading them a surplus luxury, 5gpt, and a small lump some of money (30ish). Occasionally I have to throw in Open Borders on my side too. It's not that big a deal IMO, especially since I'm usually the one initiating the trade because *I* want the resources.
     
  13. Chibiabos

    Chibiabos Prince

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    How the heck do you get 1 for 1? I even -liberated- an AI capital and they -still- would not accept a 1-for-1 deal.
     
  14. Ravellion

    Ravellion Prince

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    Agreed. Offering 5gpt seems to make them offer at least half way decent trades.
     
  15. Uncle_Joe

    Uncle_Joe Prince

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    Dunno, I've only had it happen a few times, but it has happened.

    I think part of the problem is that people are taking the AIs request as 'their final offer'. If you say 1 for 1 and they say 'no, 2 for 1', that doesnt mean 'take it or leave it'. You can still juggle things around and make a deal.

    The next time you get an offer of 2 for 1, switch it back to 1 for 1, give them 5pt, 30 gold, and Open Borders. See if they'll take it. If not, THEN ask what they want and it will often be some variation of the deal you just offered. This is mainly true when the AIs seem to be 'friendly-ish'. If they have hostile things to say, you ain't getting a good deal.

    Personally, while I think it could prolly use a little tweaking, I find this new system more interesting and accurate for the game. I mean, prior to the patch, they would almost always trade 1 for 1, even if we were just fighting 5 turns before or were otherwise at each other's throats. And in an addition, it didnt matter whether the AI needed the resources or not...it was just 1 for 1. Now I feel like I have to find an AI that needs what I've got.
     
  16. DaveGold

    DaveGold Emperor

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    You could spend a whole game searching.
     
  17. dorn

    dorn Chieftain

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    I don't think you even know what my claim was. My claim was (to the person who said trade wasn't working) that it must of been because he pissed them off. I then claimed that diplomacy exists and making AI's happy with you makes them more likely to do deals OF SOME SORT.

    I'm not even disagreeing with you (on any point) that the current patch has messed up resource trading. You just attacked my post out of nowhere and took it out of context.
     
  18. d4everman

    d4everman Chieftain

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    Not to attack Dorn, but you're right, Chib. I got ONE fair 1 for 1 deal in my last game from a civ that I hadn't met previously. As soon as the deal ran out and I wernt to renegotiate they wanted everything but the kitchen sink.

    Not one civ would give me a fair deal. Lizzy had EIGHT surplus gems but wouldn't give me one of them for my surplus pearls w/o my only incense resource, dyes and cotton.

    And whats up with the AI asking for a lump sum payment if you ask for gold per turn. If i ask for 5g per turn for a resource whats the point in saying "OK, but give me open borders AND 30g right now". Why not subtract the 30g from the initial per turn agreement?

    Diplomacy was awful in this game to start and it really sucks now. I don't even know if I can stand playing it anymore. Its more enjoyable to read the forums right now. I usually play MMOs so I'm no stranger to the wailing and the gnashing of teeth in game forums when a game is released....and i usually think the people wailing and gnashing are just whining. I thought that when I first started playing CiV...but not anymore. The game is seriously flawed....and I don't have a lot of faith in it being patched to anything worth the trouble (for me, YMMV). Right now the only real way to play is war. Talk about dumbed down.
     
  19. MadRat

    MadRat Cheese Raider

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    I agree 100% the patch actually made the game MORE frustrating to play. Theyu need to bring back Soren Johnson ASAP and give Shafer a kick and a pink slip.

    Note to ALL game devs in all genres: Frustrating <> challenging

    Rat
     
  20. rt12568

    rt12568 Chieftain

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    Wrong, the AI decisions are not based on past relationships from what I am seeing. Granted, I have not been to war with any of them yet. However, my "friends" and those that I have snubbed over and over by not opening borders/no pacts will both offer me the same deals for luxuries. When I offer to buy with gold their excess luxuries they all will offer me the same deal in gpt + a little gold. This value also seems about on par with the value AI's put luxuries at pre-patch. It will sell to me for 7gpt plus some change, which is the value it would buy from me pre-patch.

    This really seems to stink of not understanding how their own code is written. Didn't they know that devaluing our luxuries in the AI's view without changing the value it put on its own luxuries would cause this?......Seems like it should be a simple fix, but now we got a month or more of this until they patch the things they broke with patching a fix for something else.
     

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