1.5 Feedback

Excellent point. Clearly mines have a purpose, of connecting resources. Both windmills and solar farms are for providing hammer bonuses on otherwise useless tiles. Perhaps we do not need both. In this case, let us delete solar farms and the related solar energy tech.

One can argue that although there is bright sun to work with, the storms damage the large, flat surfaces of solar panels too easily. I don't recall reference to either solar or wind energy in the books.
 
Well, if nothing else a little interest.

Vanilla has:
farm
cottage
mine
workshop
windmill
waterwheel
lumbermill
road/railway

We have:
cottage
mine
turbine
solar farm

Cut one of those, and we're down to 3 non-bonus improvements. Pretty boring!
 
Well there are reasons we don't have equivalents of all the vanilla improvements.

farm - we tried the qanat improvement but it was lame and was cut
workshop - this was reskinned as solar farm
windmill - this was reskinned as turbine
waterwheel - we have no rivers
lumbermill - we have no forests
road/railway - we don't want these as they are un-Dune

If we want more of a range, perhaps we should look at a water producing improvement again, or think about a feature we could add that might be exploited to have the equivalent of waterwheel/lumbermill.
 
I dont think that Dune need more, thats not boring at all ,its already too much i dont build all of them either and feel good with this. Also we have special resource imporovements (Deep well), and finally, we have UPGRADEABLE improvements. Thats alot of mechanics and gameplay involved with improving your improvements (huh :p). "More" does not always means "better".
 
Cut one of those, and we're down to 3 non-bonus improvements. Pretty boring!

I'm not so sure. I hardly ever build windmill, watermill, lumbermill in vanilla, and I only remember building workshop occasionally. Apart from the fact that they have some slightly different limitations on placement, does it really add that much?
 
If we want more of a range, perhaps we should look at a water producing improvement again, or think about a feature we could add that might be exploited to have the equivalent of waterwheel/lumbermill.

im all for having a forest like feature...make the terrain less boring :)
 
Well there are reasons we don't have equivalents of all the vanilla improvements.

I understand why we don't have those particular improvements, my point was that we want to retain some variety as much as possible.

Turbines vs solar farms are really all the variety we have left. And having turbines on ridges and solar farms in sinks seems like another good way to add more variety.

There is very very little strategic choice left in improvement construction. In vanilla you can customize and balance your choice of food, hammers and commerce, and have a wide range of visuals. Here, its almost a no brainer what you will build on every tile. Bonus resource? Build the bonus. Maximize windtraps. Otherwise; next to a well? Cottage it. Not next to a well? turbine or solar farm.

I don't think a forest-feature makes sense in Dune. I really *like* the barren feel with no vegetation around. Removing tubers was a very good decision.

I think it adds a lot to have some more improvements, both visually, strategically and player-engagement wise.

I don't think we need *more* stuff, but I think we should keep the improvements we have and try to make them useful.
 
I don't think we need *more* stuff, but I think we should keep the improvements we have and try to make them useful.

If we consider mine and cottage as fixed, then we ""only"" need to define

a. Turbine, with three levels and/or techs, which is an interesting tradeoff against mine on mesa.

b. Solar farm, with three levels and/or techs, which is an interesting tradeoff against cottage on rock/sink.

There are no other combinations, right?
 
May be some minor defencive improvements or refineries.

Lets say Refinery improvement, 1 hammer +1 cash, adds more cash with few techs, adds +1 commerce per 2 spice tile withing 1 square radius? (Make sence in form of passive spice gathering) (Just idea, we can adjust bonus) and requries Arrakis Future civic to build?

Special only on salt late improvement (aka lumbermill), Salt Refinery - gives hammers and commerce.

Tradepost - Gives commerce on cross - adjacent tiles +1 and own tile (5 tiles total), gives defencive bonuses and slight culture boost (1 cpt)

Lets try thinking not-vanilla mechanics. Some new mechanic might be much more fitting and interesting.
 
Well, we might need to *un*fix the mine in order to make things work. And remember that there is an implicit comparison to running specialists. Make worked tiles too good and specialists aren't worth it. Make worked tiles too poor and tile working isn't worth it.

And unless you want to remove turbine from flat as well as from sink, then you're missing some.

Turbine vs mine on mesa needs to be interesting.
Turbine vs solar farm on flat (rock/rugged) needs to be interesting.
Turbine vs cottage on flat needs to be interesting.
Solar farm vs cottage on flat/sink needs to be interesting.

But otherwise yeah.

And as variables to play with we have:
Hammer and commerce yields.
Water yield (but -ve water yield is problematic for the AI, so should maybe be ignored)
Build time (but build time is ignored by the AI when choosing improvements)
Tech access.
Upgradability; by tech or by built version.
 
Ok i gave alot of though today on this topic.

So far i got some good (i think they are, sure with some adjustments,) additions, which will get mod closer both to canon Dune feel and add some cool features from Westwood games, which can make territorial improvements game very interesting.

1. As proposed, Spice Refinery Improvement. Which aviable at spice industry, and provides +1 gold per adjacent spice tile. It add great mechanics, when you can place it well, and benefit (alittle) from all those spice tiles which are not fall into bfc, by working this land tile. Probably cant be built with Arrakis Paradise civic, And gain +1 commerce bonus with Spice future. It also make alot of sence canon wise and westwood wise - close placed refinery will improve commerce and will improve spice operations.

----------------------------------------
2. Completely new mechanics.
Involving few units and few improvements.

a. Do you remeber those consdtruction units from Westwood series, which can build base? For me, in late dune such mobile construction platforms make alot of sense. So, late in game MCV unit , which should be built in hammers, and builds special improvements. It being consumed by building those special improvements.
b. Improvements, which are aviable late-mid/late in game, are iusing Demagog Mechanics from FFH. If being worked, improvement grow, and when it grow enough of turns, it spawn some kind of unit, and improvement resets.

but unit type depends on improvement, but wait read forth , not normal unit.....

note: all thoise improvements hsould have special classs, like "advanced improvement". Distance should be limited to 3 minimum distance between different special improvements. That mean you can just spam them.

a1. Assembly Center. Grows # turns whine being worked. provde +3 hammers, can be built by MCV only, MCV consumed by construstion. When grown , it spawn "supply truck" unit (not big one) (aka soldier of killmorph in ffh), which can hurry some part of production. Yeild wise it should be same as same era mines/solar farms, but it allow you to xfer production. (haha you can load those in tranposts and send suplies on war front cities which are on other continent or just collect production, which can be used lately)
When grown, its resets its growth (using demagog mechanics)

a2. Trading post. +2 commerce, +1 culture. When grown , spawns Trader (simple) which just can go and generate some cash with your OB neighbour. (neet to check and ballance yield)

a3. Training Camp . Spawns current era melee unit. (Intersing use for warmongers and some bad tile cities.) (make alot of sence from canon Dune too), improved rate of unit production in comparison to city that have not +% military uniot production bonus.

a4. Planet Study Center. +1 hammer +1 commerce, spawns Probes. (Some truck perhaps), Institutes that study planet on land. dune is mistyreous planet and there is much to learn.

round up.
All of those tiles built by mcv, and reset when grow, spawning unit. Tehy are limited to build (3 tiles minimum distance between any MCV improvements), and have very interesting variations of use. Sure , some civics should influence them , via +% certain improvement growth speed.
Player wise it will add alot of interesting options, like hurrying production in weak cities, or extra warmongering, and with civics it will add alot of options and synergies to use.
AI wise it wont be hard. Need to calculate average yeild by dividing boost result / truns need to grow, but certain civics lovers AIs will find those very nice and usefull, more than that, they will look as more flavour-full-following AIs.

Sure , the thing 2 is raw and need to be balanced, but it can be good. We are not lazy, aren't we. Some of such, even modified alot from what i proposed, mechanics will add alot of fun and variety to improvement game.
 
Just some comments. I appreciate that you're trying to be creative and brainstorm, and these may sound harsh, but we get the best mod by thinking hard about proposals. Testing to destruction - a very Dune concept.

As proposed, Spice Refinery Improvement.

We already have a Refinery as a building. My feeling was that in-desert refining/handlnig was already represented by the harvester improvement.
However, we could have a refinery building in the city that gave extra bonuses for harvester improvements in the BFC.
Planetfall had a building like that, that gave a bonus (free specialist?) for each robotic mine in its BFC.

provides +1 gold per adjacent spice tile
This seems weaker than a cottage - you will hardly ever have a tile adjacent to more than 2 spice tiles.
Also, more things where you have to contantly have to run around rebuilding improvements because of spice blows/evaporation? Doesn't seem that much fun. Unless you're intending for this to be built on deserts?
Also seems like a lot of work to code (sdk mod required); there aren't any buildings now whose yield depnds on the presence of things in adjacent tiles.

Do you remeber those consdtruction units from Westwood series, which can build base? For me, in late dune such mobile construction platforms make alot of sense. So, late in game MCV unit

An MCV seems very un-Duneish to me. That kind of thing was built for the computer games for standard C&C gameplay mechanics, but nothing like that appears at all in the books. Maniac tried something like this in Planetfall with a supply crawler building robotic mines, but then later removed it I think.

b. Improvements, which are aviable late-mid/late in game, are iusing Demagog Mechanics from FFH. If being worked, improvement grow, and when it grow enough of turns, it spawn some kind of unit, and improvement resets.
The AI allocates tile work (and improvement construction) based only on resource yields. So, if this improvement gives as good yields as other resources, then it will be too powerful, because it also gives free units. If it doesn't, then it will never be built or worked.
Also, why should terrain improvements be given workers; some kind of militia being levied?

a2. Trading post. +2 commerce, +1 culture. When grown , spawns Trader (simple) which just can go and generate some cash with your OB neighbour. (neet to check and ballance yield)
Trading posts in the suburbs of your own city? Feels weird.
Also, improvements can't generate culture.

a3. Training Camp . Spawns current era melee unit. (Intersing use for warmongers and some bad tile cities.) (make alot of sence from canon Dune too),
Units should be trained in cities, not by improvements. Thats how the civ engine works; the AI knows how to build units in cities, not by working tiles.
If it has a low yile yield, the AI will never build it, if it has a high tile yield, then it is too strong.

improved rate of unit production in comparison to city that have not +% military uniot production bonus.
I don't understand this.

Planet Study Center. +1 hammer +1 commerce, spawns Probes.
What is a probe?
None of the factions in Dune other than the Fremen and maybe Atreides have any interest in studying Dune either. Elrood sends Kynes to Arrakis and then just ignores him, and Shaddam ignores his son.
 
Ok , few comments :
MCV can be engeneering squad.
Puprose for post is brainstorm yes.
Improvements can generate Culture - check FF+ for FFH.
AI can be programmed to count those improvements as sommething different, by using formula. (benefit_unit_value/turns_to generate), and sure, it can be programmed.
All numbers given is hightly experiemental (can be changed, like +2 gp per spice tile, and thats for brainstorm, really.
As well, names are random. We can call it Harvesting Operation Control Center.
Its just about abstract ideas of new uses of game mechanics. Names and numbers not matter, direction of thinking is. MCV can be Engeneering Squad , +1 can be +2, codding can be added, just need to look on new directions, because old ones are abused. What is good within FFH is that it was 1st using alot of new mechanics, or un-distinguishable modifications of vanilla ones.
 
Is reprogramming the AI for selecting which improvements to work really something we get into?

I don't see what we gain from shifting unit construction from hammers in cities into improvements being worked, except confusion.
 
Is reprogramming the AI for selecting which improvements to work really something we get into?

I don't see what we gain from shifting unit construction from hammers in cities into improvements being worked, except confusion.

Sure you have a point. But ok, lets say we can master this technique on good yeld tile. Normal tile which can be upgraded by Engeneering squad. Impove yild and generate unit for much longer time to compensate yeild, but it might be interesting. sure, there are also easier ways. (for example) +4h+1c tile, which also grows units though long time.
Also i dont think that prioritising working on such improvements is hard to code (in case its same yield tiles, 1 with improvement, 1 without)
Also it can be just tier 4-5 mines-whatsoever.
Just idea with groiwing usefull units.
Btw unit that can stock hammers (aka soldier of killmorph, the supply truck , whatever) is very nice and fits dune imo.
 
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