(1-WD) Skirmisher Terrain promotion should be removed

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pineappledan

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Counterproposal to this:

The skirmisher ability that buffs them in open terrain and nerfs them in rough has been a mistake. We would be better off with the old skirmisher, and with this promotion not existing.

Other proposals have suggested lowering their RCS, but giving them logistics, lowering their RCS and giving them +1 movement, or a combination of these with some sort of flanking bonus.

If we can't agree on one of those other proposals for what the skirmisher line should do, can we at least agree that they Shouldn't have this daft terrain bonus?
 

Recursive

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Proposal sponsored by me (in current form).

(This indicates that I am able and willing to perform the code changes required for this proposal if the community votes Aye on it. Other coders are free to sponsor this as well.)
 

Stalker0

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Without that bonus, and no other changes....skirmishers will likely be pretty worthless, especially the UU ones. This just nerfs them into the ground, without giving them a new niche. You might as well say, "remove the skirmisher line".
 

pineappledan

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If we can't agree on a new direction or bonus for them, then as far as I'm concerned the terrain bonus is worse than nothing.

We've had several different ideas on how to change them, and 1 of them even passed the old vote system, but required new DLL to implement.
 

Rekk

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Without that bonus, and no other changes....skirmishers will likely be pretty worthless, especially the UU ones. This just nerfs them into the ground, without giving them a new niche. You might as well say, "remove the skirmisher line".
PAD's tweaks has done almost exactly this and they're fine.
 

nekokon

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Would be so much better to have one discussion thread outside before any proposal/counter proposal so we can keep track of all opinions. It's so hard to follow going through 3 different threads on the same topic like this.
 

azum4roll

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Without that bonus, and no other changes....skirmishers will likely be pretty worthless, especially the UU ones. This just nerfs them into the ground, without giving them a new niche. You might as well say, "remove the skirmisher line".
I assume they'll also be reverted to lower CS/slightly lower RCS than the archer line as before the changes.
 

Stalker0

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I assume they'll also be reverted to lower CS/slightly lower RCS than the archer line as before the changes.
That’s a poor assumption since the current proposal notes here has no changes to cs/rcs.
 

Gazebo

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Counterproposal to this:
Shouldn't have this daft terrain bonus?
I'll note the crux of the proposal as valid, but I do ask that this and all current/future proposals focus more on proving the point than diatribe.

G
 

Stalker0

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PAD's tweaks has done almost exactly this and they're fine.
This is untrue. Here are the changes from PDan's tweaks:

Skirmisher Line Changes:
Chariot units:
Chariot Archer-Class units have 4 moves
Chariot Movement Penalty is back, but with a twist: Chariots lose 1 extra movement in rough terrain
Chariots have high CS and RCS for their unit line, more like front-line tanks
Post -Chariot Skirmishers:
All Non-Chariot Skirmishers have 5 base movement
All Skirmishers RCS has been reduced
Skirmisher doctrine (+/- strength in Open/Rough terrain) has been replaced with a new Skirmisher promotion:
Hit & Run
+50% when defending against ranged attacks


These are way more changes than just "remove skirmisher doctrine", its a complete redesign. And that's ok, I'm not opposed to a skirmisher redesign per say. I just think tossing skirmisher doctrine with no other changes is complete folly, all it does is make the unit useless.
 

Rekk

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Fair enough.

Maybe this proposal is better used as another attempt to implement PAD's tweaks, now that it will be free from the burden of requiring a supermajority.
 

ma_kuh

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What I like about the simplicity of just removing skirmisher doctrine now is that it resets the baseline for how the unit feels and operates. I'd expect more of the skirmisher rework ideas will be introduced during next month's congress, and having some time to play around with a more vanilla skirmisher would help identify its real issues, beyond whether it is better or worse than the horseman line in any given terrain or era.
 

Recursive

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@pineappledan Skirmishers have been hugely changed in the new October 1 release. Given the exceptional circumstances, I'll give you the opportunity to withdraw your proposal as it may no longer be applicable. You can also edit your proposal if you still want to go through with it. Please respond within 72 hours or I will consider the thread closed. :)
 

pineappledan

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Close thread please. This proposal was a stop gap until the flanking proposal could be implemented.
 

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Closed as requested.
 
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