10-07 Spain rework

[KittyKat3120]

Wasnt this modified spain in a submod created by pineappledan as well?
With china (?) are you intending to introduce that modification as well?

 

[pineappledan]

Is it possible to have unique religious units? Spain seems like a civ that would be cool with them.

It's possible, but many of the functions of religious units are boolean codes, so there isn't much wiggle room

i would definitely go with the current one because it's way more satisfying to use; having a huge capital that gets better and bigger every time you conquer another city is super fun to use.

I like Spain already. The big food bonus and mission have lots of interesting synergies

That's 3 people, including ElliotS that have advocated for keeping the food. Would people prefer something like 335 on all tiles then?

Maybe you could allow inquisitors to give a bonus to the city they're stationed in or let them remove heresy twice. If you did either of those and perhaps made them maintenance free they really would be very strong and integral to your strategy.

I could make them maintenance-free and give yields when garrisoned. These are both possible with existing code.
I cannot make them have multiple remove heresy charge though; that is hard-coded

Maybe we could replace the culture bonus by a border growth yield (aka blue culture) for the Hacienda : it would mean in-game that when the Hacienda is built next to a city (sign of a lack of space for the colonists), then there is more efforts to expand territory.

This would be a fine idea. It could be 2 Border Growth. That also lends more symmetry to the adjacency yields, 2BGP/2/2/2 for city/bonus/luxury/strategic

I think the Hacienda is not necessary, the mission is a fine building for Spain and I don't think its OP.

Russia also has a tile claim bonus UA and a defensive unique building.
USA has a tile claim bonus and a UNW
I like Spain getting a UI, because:

• it feels more different than what other similar civs have
• It emphasizes Spain's focus on land
• It unstacks the unique components, so they don't both unlock on Chivalry, already a very high-value tech
• A UI is more interactive, giving placement trade-offs and opportunities to optimize terrain and making the map look more unique, especially when compared to a UB that doesn't do anything except give a bonus on birth

Wasnt this modified spain in a submod created by pineappledan as well?
With china (?) are you intending to introduce that modification as well?

I'm not intending on doing anything with my China mod. I think it's an improvement on the China, but it would require a ton of new code.

 

[tu_79]

Spain was never very fertile. Droughts and famine periods were recurrent. So, even if it was fun to play a Spain with so much early population, it was antithematic.

Hacienda is very much more thematic. These were small villages that serviced a nearby city but they didn't depend on external resources to survive. They had their own walls, communal living, and every artisan the local farmers needed: smith, carpenter, baker, apothecary and a priest. It was very efficient on a rather small population... But it demands more land to extend this model.

PAD design is proper. At least I agree with the focus on expanding the borders to make room for the most haciendas that can fit. I have yet to play it to see if the mini game he proposes for hacienda placement is interesting enough.
Maybe they could reduce distress in the city they are serving, too.

If free inquisitors is not working, what if the capital gets a bonus after reformation that scales on the number of cities following the cult? The pope rewarded greatly the Spanish (and Portuguese) Kings for spreading the faith se awards. Edit: I mean, after enhanced.

 

[Phosphoraptor]

Regarding Inquisitions, I would still like it to resemble the pre-rework on conquer conversion. The anti-synergy with Inquisition from no pop loss/anarchy can be offset with greater rewards and yields from inquisitions.

 

[Zanteogo]

I could make them maintenance-free and give yields when garrisoned. These are both possible with existing code.

I like the yields when garrisoned. A counter to unhappiness would be neat, as it would fit the theme. (Fear of stepping out of line and being accused of heresy)

 

[vyyt]

I like the rework a lot. I wasn't a big fan of the religious immunity of the "vanilla" VP Spain.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Although i'm not an advocate for removing the mission *I play with 4thUC anyway* i don't think the Hacienda should lose culture when adjacent to a city; we are talking about an improvement that's unlocked late medieval providing one culture ... Border growth points at this point in the game is unnoticeable at best

 

[JamesNinelives]

late medieval

Border growth points at this point in the game is unnoticeable at best

That doesn't sound quite right.

 

[pineappledan]

pushing new version. link in the OP

The Inquisitor on city capture isn't working, and I would really like that ability to work because it models the current UA being able to convert every city immediately. For now, however, I need to at least give it a placeholder that is functional.

By popular demand, some food. Re-did the yields on culture gain to be 335 for now. I don't think the food makes any thematic sense whatsoever, but I guess it's a meme now?

Spoiler v2 :

UA - Reqonquista
Gaining tiles generates Food, Faith and Gold, scaling with Era. Inquisitors are stronger, unlock earlier and cost no Unit Maintenance. May purchase Naval Units with Faith.

UI - Hacienda (Worker Improvement):
available at Compass
build time - 8 turns
Can be built anywhere, but not adjacent to other Hacienda
+1 Food, Production, Gold, Border Growth
Gains yields for each adjacent city and resource:

+2 Border Growth if adjacent to a City
+2 Food for each Bonus Resource
+2 Production for each Strategic Resource
+2 Gold for each Luxury Resource​

we are talking about an improvement that's unlocked late medieval providing one culture ... Border growth points at this point in the game is unnoticeable at best

It makes perfect sense if you are razing and resettling to get more yields from your UA. You should be able to ring a city for 9 BGP.

 

[randomnub]

Border Growth

I like this new yield icon.

Not a fan of food on the UA either. I actually liked civ 6 Spain inquisitors granting a combat bonus to stacked/nearby units, but I guess the AI would be terribad at using them.

 

[Hinin]

Although i'm not an advocate for removing the mission *I play with 4thUC anyway* i don't think the Hacienda should lose culture when adjacent to a city; we are talking about an improvement that's unlocked late medieval providing one culture ... Border growth points at this point in the game is unnoticeable at best

It makes perfect sense if you are razing and resettling to get more yields from your UA. You should be able to ring a city for 9 BGP.

Spoiler Long :

Don't forget that Medieval era is also when Spain begins to place cities everywhere with conquistadores, and also when bonus from medieval policy trees begin being felt (double border growth from fealty, bonus culture from statecraft and artistry). In the end, it's usually not the time when each tile acquisition can be very important like in the ancient/classical or industrial/modern (because of strategic resources) but it's a moment where global territory growth is most visible.

That said, it of course depends on the type of map you play with. If each tile must be fought for by the midgame, of course the BGP are less interesting. However for people like me who like the second-wave colonization the renaissance era usually allows on communitu79, then it's quite nice.

 

[Hinin]

By popular demand, some food. Re-did the yields on culture gain to be 335 for now. I don't think the food makes any thematic sense whatsoever, but I guess it's a meme now?

To me, it really depends on what city is affected : if all the food is directed towards the capital, then it's clearly antithematic. However, if it's the nearest city (like for the border growth policy from authority) then it can make sense as symbolizing the (forceful) integration of nearby population in Spanish settlements.

In any case, I think tests are needed on that front before continuing the discussion.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

It makes perfect sense if you are razing and resettling to get more yields from your UA. You should be able to ring a city for 9 BGP.

Razing and settling at this point in the game is not something i would call a good strategy tbh, if you are going on a conquering spree you would almost always be puppetting every city besides capitals and extremely good cities and if you are going for limited conquest to secure borders and acquire vassals it's always better to get courthouses especially because their cost would not be too high simce your empire is not a 20 cities anyway.
Culture is a more impactful yield overall and we are not talking about bazillions of it in each city, it's a maximum of 3 if you manage to surround every city with it (not counting the buffs from architecture tech ofc.).

That doesn't sound quite right.

By late medieval most of my cities have acquired the tiles i care about either by natural border growth or purchase with gold .... Newly settled cities (especially Spanish cities with conquistadors) start with additional land so again BGP are not really impactful or even noticeable at that point.
I'd rather have 1 point of a yield that matters instead of 3 that do not.

 

[JamesNinelives]

By late medieval most of my cities have acquired the tiles i care about either by natural border growth or purchase with gold

Good for you. My experiences are very different. Particularly when you grow your cities large, you want as much land as you can get. Every tile you own has the potential to be a strategic resource or excavation site you control. And the larger your territory, the most land you control for military and logistical purposes.

 

[Zuizgond]

By popular demand, some food. Re-did the yields on culture gain to be 335 for now. I don't think the food makes any thematic sense whatsoever, but I guess it's a meme now?

I wasn't under the impression we had a consensus about re-adding food gain. I don't think it's needed but if the majority thinks so I'm ok with it.

 

[pineappledan]

The pro-food crowd were loud, and the anti-food crowd were not. Maybe someone needs to make a poll?

 

[Hinin]

The pro-food crowd were loud, and the anti-food crowd were not. Maybe someone needs to make a poll?

I'm all for it.

 

[Bromar1]

Good for you. My experiences are very different. Particularly when you grow your cities large, you want as much land as you can get. Every tile you own has the potential to be a strategic resource or excavation site you control. And the larger your territory, the most land you control for military and logistical purposes.

Tile acquisition has been largely slowed down across the board lately, so extra BGP is more valuable later into the game than it used to be. Flat culture rewards you for having lots of land already. BGP is more rewarding for your newly settled conquistador cities. Personally, I prefer BGP to encourage that second wave colonization that is thematic for Spain.

 

[abulafia77]

instead of a free inquisitor, what about a free missionary in the capital? Inquisitor would be more fitting, but missionary may have less gating issues ..

 

[tu_79]

The pro-food crowd were loud, and the anti-food crowd were not. Maybe someone needs to make a poll?

I'm for less food. If it ends up being weak, add anything else.