10 leaders for Civ V, which will you choose?

[Miles Teg]

Zara was a weak willed leader who accomplished little. Perhaps not so much a failure as somebody completely insignificant.

I'm not familiar with Ethiopian history, but it does look like Menelik or Ezana would have been a better choice.

Shaka's hard-headedness led to his assassination and he didn't accomplish anywhere near what Caesar or Lincoln who did (particularily if you consider tha Lincoln was killed by a lone sociopath, and evidence suggests Caesar intentionally provoked his own assassination, as he was suffering from severe epilepsy).

What? Shaka founded the Zulu nation, revolutionized Zulu military tactics and orginization. Say all you want about the Zulu, but Shka was their best. And then he he went completely insane. Oh and what evidence is there that Caesar staged this elaborate suicide?

Mao? He's the biggest failure of them all. He took an ancient culture on the verge of becoming a world power and drove it into the ground. While some can argue that Stalin's brutal policies aided Russia in shifting from agrarian to industrial, Mao's ******ed "cultural revolution" served only to kill off China's heritage, it's people and it's future. Only now is it getting back to what it could have been.

This is opening a deep can of worms best left to the "Firaxis and the gross mis-representation of non western history" thread. However it seems to me that Mao was responsible for modernizing the country, brutally, but better then it could have. How many rapid modernizations took place under democratic rule? The cultural revolution is morally inexcusable, but overall he did a decent job.

little. Perhaps not so much a failure as somebody completely insignificant.[/QUOTE]

I'm not familiar with Ethiopian history, but it does look like Menelik or Ezana would have been a better choice.

Shaka's hard-headedness led to his assassination and he didn't accomplish anywhere near what Caesar or Lincoln who did (particularily if you consider tha Lincoln was killed by a lone sociopath, and evidence suggests Caesar intentionally provoked his own assassination, as he was suffering from severe epilepsy).

What? Shaka founded the Zulu nation, revolutionized Zulu military tactics and orginization. Say all you want about the Zulu, but Shka was their best. And then he he went completely insane. Oh and what evidence is there that Caesar staged this elaborate suicide?

So how did De Gaulle get in then?

The idiocy of the designers?

Hitler was not great, or progressive, or anything like that. But he was SIGNIFICANT.

In all seriousness, greatness can be argued for some of the more lackluster leaders, but Hitler didn't leave his country better off when he died, whereas De Gaulle at least did some good for France.

Mind you, I'd be all for not having Hitler if they'd throw out Mao and Stalin as well. But the sheer idiocy of including a World War II scenario and NOT having Hitler boggles the mind. What next? The Spanish Inquisition without Isabella? The American Civil War without the Confederate States of America?

Which is why The Confederate states are included?

Surely Germany was still dimilitarised (sp?) in 1933 due to the Treaty of Versaille.

Germany was re-arming even under the Wiemar republic. By the time operation Barbarossa was underway it was one of the strongest in the world, definitely capable of holding the incredible gains made.

 

[Evie]

Actually I kind of appreciated that Civ IV catered more to us history geeks, when comapred to previous installations in the series. The most obvious sign of that was the inclusion of Hatshepsut instead of Cleopatra , an actual female Pharao instead of a Shakespearean drama queen.

I appreciate it too, mind. But realistically - if they go for only a few leaders, they will want iconic leaders that will appeal to the masses, because there are more masses than history geeks.

(That said, Cleo get a lot of undeserved bad rap. She wasn't that bad a choice for leader)

 

[DennisIran]

Okey i aint posting this cause im a nationalist or anything. I am but still

How can people leave out Persia Cyrus or dariush or any other great leader of persia. When persia has been there from the beginning

 

[Diamondeye]

Oh and what evidence is there that Caesar staged this elaborate suicide?

A novel written by Conn Iggulden

Now, on to the list;

Gaius Julius Caesar of Rome,
Vercingetorix of the Gaul (Celts),
Isabella of Spain,
Genghis Khan Temüdjin of the Mongols,
Qin Shi Huang of China,
of Japan (Only know Toku, and only from Civ...),
Alexander of the Macedon / Greeks,
Hannibal of Carthage,
of the Inca (Huayna Capac?),
Hatshepshut of Egypt.

That'll be my 10....

 

[Theodorick]

Aztec - Tlacaelel (He was the genius behind the triple alliance, or what is more commonly known today as the Aztec empire, and oversaw the formation and planning of the Empire for the rest of his life. Without him the Aztecs would have never been)

Inca - Pachacuti (Huayna Capac may have expanded the empire the furthest, but Pachacuti was the mastermind behind the entire Empire, in that if it weren't for his reorganization of it, and early expansion, all ending in a solid Empire for Huayna Capac to inherited, then Huayna Capac wouldn't have been able to do what he did. It's sort of like how Philip II of Macedon prepared everything for his son, Alexander, which made Alexander's epic conquests possible.)

Maya - Pacal II (I'm glad they got this one right!)

China - Hongwu Emperor, or Zhu Yuanzhang (He is probably the greatest emperor in Chinese history. He got the Mongols out of China's hair, unified the country for the last time, founded the Ming dynasty, and established a solid Empire that would last for 300 years. The much romanticized Qin Shi Huang only unified Northern China, was a cruel, totalitarian ruler that nearly destroyed Confucianism and killed countless lives, was so cruel to his own people that they eventually revolted after his death, thus causing his entire 'empire' to break apart eventually, and undertook a lot of monumental building projects that would have made even the Egyptians shake their head with the sole role of stroking his ego. I don't know why everyone keeps protecting him so highly. Sure he unified China, but his lunacy nearly destroyed it. The Han dynasty is a close second to the Ming, and was far more influential than the Qin.)

Egypt - Ramesses II (Don't listen to the guys saying he shouldn't be in. His achievements easily make him a leader here.)

Germany - Otto von Bismarck ('nuff said)

India - Ashoka the Great (Why is Ghandi a leader again? If that crazy man would have ruled India, it would have collapsed with his ideas!)

Arabia - Saladin (If the world were a nice place, Muhammad would be a better choice, but I won't even start on how much trouble making him a leader would cause! BTW Saladin wasn't just a military leader like so many erroneously state here. Read up on him. There's a difference between Caliphate and Sultan.)

Zulu - Shaka (He was the founder of the Zulu empire, and no, it didn't fall during his reign. That happened after is death.)

Turkey - Suleiman the Magnificent

 

[Zenon_pt]

only 10?
Well:
1. Henry (but this time name him Henrique) of Portugal (OF COURSE)
2. Alexander, Greece
3. Gengis Khan, Mongolia
4. Ghandi, India
5. Catherine, Russia
6. Victoria, England, correction of UK
7. Tokugawa, Japan
8. J Caesar, Rome
9. Napoleon, France
10. Rameses, Egypt

 

[Scaramanga]

Here's my list of "true kings" (all others are imposters or pretenders - ok, maybe they're just who I'd like to play as ).

1. Sargon the Great of Akkad
2. Ramesses II of Egypt
3. Asoka of India
4. Alexander of Greece
5. Cyrus I of Persia
6. Qin Shi Huang of China
7. Augustus Caesar of Rome
8. Charlemagne of Franconia
9. Genghis Khan of Mongolia
10. Suleiman I of Ottoman

Cheers

 

[L4zXX0r]

Ok

Rome - Caligula
Spain - Franco
England - Oliver Cromwell
Russia - Boris Yeltsin
Vietnam - Ho Chi Mihn
United States - Andrew Johnson
Cuba - Raul Castro
Persia - Shah Palavi
Zimbabwe - Mugabe
Ostrogoths - Theodoric The Great

Ok..... BEST LIST EVAR!

Not really.

 

[LightSpectra]

Saladin wasn't the leader of Arabia. He was an Egyptian prince who, through politics, gained military control of most of the Muslim world.

 

[LightSpectra]

If they want to deny their own history, that's their problem. The local publishers could edit out the unwanted stuff at their own expense. Why do the rest of us have to have our experiences altered to suit the sensibilities of a bunch of moral cowards?

So you want Firaxis to give up free money so you can play a genocidal bigot?

And you really think he's more important than Bismark or Frederick? You know, without them, there would be no Germany.

 

[Say_my_name]

Two, anything related to the Third Reich is banned in Germany, and Firaxis doesn't want to lose their German market.

"Anything" is an overexaggeration. Nazi insignia, pictures, swastikas and propaganda material are banned as long as they don't serve as educational material, and that's it. Computer games don't count as educational, that's why there will never be a game with Hitler or swastikas in it, or atleast not in the near future.

 

[Bast]

I'm surprised that Victoria is getting so many votes. So I decided to count who was getting the most votes between Elizabeth and Victoria.

Elizabeth leads by 10-7. Not bad. I thought Elizabeth will be the overwhelming favourite. Personally, I think they both should be in.

Churchill? Please!

 

[aronnax]

Elizabeth I, Virgin Queen of England
Suleimen the Magnificent Sultan of Ottoman
Salah-Ah-Din, Champion of Islam of Arabia
Hong Wu, Peasant Emperor of China
Peter I, the Great Tsar of Russia
Chandragupta Maurya, First Emperor of India
Abbas I, Savior Shah of Safavid Persia
John Paul II, Polish Pope of the Papal States
Temujin, Khan of Mongolia
Hatesphut, Queen Pharoh of Egypt

I think they are the Ten best rulers ever

 

[LightSpectra]

If the Papal States were a civ, the leader would almost certainly be Pope Nicholas I. He's the person responsible for turning Papal territory from just a separate nation into a full-blown individual identity.

 

[aronnax]

If the Papal States were a civ, the leader would almost certainly be Pope Nicholas I. He's the person responsible for turning Papal territory from just a separate nation into a full-blown individual identity.

Well yeah, but john paul seems to deserve to be immortalised as an honourary leader of Civ 4

 

[sydhe]

Well yeah, but john paul seems to deserve to be immortalised as an honourary leader of Civ 4

I'd go with Gregory I.

 

[Venger]

Ten - way too few. Some Civs are in for flavor - Shaka Zulu, for instance, not a particularly historically important or remarkable Civ, but it adds the flavor of Sub-Saharan Africa and gives Civ variety. China gets a pass due to size, long standing cultural influence and identity. But they never have been a global power, or a regional hegemon. But you can't have Civ without them. Folks like to exclude the USA as too "new", but that's usually cultural insecurity talking, hard to exclude the most influential and powerful nation currently on Earth.

Then we get to Civs like France - France currently is merely taking up space on planet Earth, but they are culturally and historically significant, so you have to have them. Germany frankly has less claim, but they are at the center of the two largest conflicts in history, so... you gotta have them. India is similar to China - alot of people, but if it weren't for being ruled by Britain, they'd be lumped in with the rest of Southeast Asia. India is a close call.

Going to have Russia, of course, England, of course... starting to run low on "must haves".

Guess you are going to have the Mongols - hard to imagine Civ without the Mongol Empire, even if it was fairly transient and didn't hold much long term significance, and it does fit that Civ flavor.

Greece is a Civ that is awkward, it's empire was very transient, like the Mongols, but so influential in Western culture, you gotta include it.

Not sure the point of the exercise, myself, seeing as we have Civs like the Celts and Carthage now, more historical footnotes than anything else...

Venger

 

[Miles Teg]

Chinese Inventions:

Abacus Chinese Calculator
Paper money
Battens in sails
Belt drive
Blast furnace
The cannon
Cast iron
Chain drive
Chinese cuisine: Tofu, Ramen, Sushi
Chinese clothing: Qipao, Hanfu
Chopsticks
Bituminous coke for the iron and steel industry
Compass
Crank, hand-operated
Crossbow and repeating crossbow
Escapement mechanism for clocks
Exploding cannonball
Fire Arrow
Gunpowder
Firearms
Horse collar
Hull compartments/bulkheads
Kite
Land mines
Lottery
Naval mines
Noodles (including pasta)
Paper
Pound lock
Printing (woodblock printing and movable type)
Rockets: Fire Arrow, Multistage rocket
Rotary fan
Rudder
Sailing carriage
Seismometer
Silk
Differential gear
Sluice gates
Toilet paper
Trebuchet
Trip hammer
Vaccination
Wheelbarrow
Winnowing machine

And to say that they weren't even a regional Hegemon is just ignorant. Untill shortly before Europe came into the area they dominated the region, and their true glory days were several centuries earlier. The fact that Zebra's and Girrafes were known at court speaks of a near a Global Power as it was possible to be at that time.

I have to go, so I'll adress you on India later

 

[Snetsinger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles Teg View Post
Oh and what evidence is there that Caesar staged this elaborate suicide?
A novel written by Conn Iggulden

I wouldn't consider a historical fiction novel series, which "interweaves history and adventure.", as a reference for historical fact. The quote comes from Conn Iggulden's own website www.conniggulden.com. I did see a show on discovery channel or history channel which also claimed that Caesar may have allowed his assassination to happen. However, this was one of the those overly dramaticized programs which are made more to draw in a TV audience then to educate people about history.

 

[GigaNerd]

Franklin Roosevelt
Chiang Kai-Shek
Winston Churchill
Charles de Gaulle
Jawaharlal Nehru
Joseph Stalin
Francisco Franco
-----------------
Adolf Hitler
Showa Hirohito
Benito Mussolini

Just think, if WWII lasted the entire reign of humanity, from 4000BC to 4000AD!