1421

[Dann]

Nah, Japan was still very isolated. Afew ships a year into Dejima? Thats open to you? Japan barely saw any technical innovations between 1600 and 1854. Japan did not industrialize so fast not because it was already pretty advanced and industrialized by that time but because of the pure drive and discipline of the Japanese society to accomplish what it wants working in one concentrated effort not millions of people going every which way thinking for themselves. The Japanese society is quite different from any other. I cite post WWII Japan as an example.

Al;so look at china. China was open to all it just closed its mind of sorts for lack of a better term. Its taken China so long to "modernize" because everybody goes every which way not looking for the end goal but for every single individuals drive for self-interest.

Oh and I'm not anti-Chinese and Japan obsessed if you think so. I'm Chinese, I just see whats really going on and am not held back by nationalism of any kind.

Couldn't agree more. And yet when I try to say this to the locals they gang up on me with nothing but the standard rhetoric. Chinese think they're nationalistic, but it is a very shallow version and nothing compared to what the Japanese have (or once had).

 

[Disenfrancised]

And lets not forget that bigger is not necessarily better - where is the long term benefit of a huge treasure ship if it cost more to build and keep running than the possible profits it can generate?

 

[Evie]

That would be a valid comment as well. though I'm not certain how well it applies.

But on a more basic approach,which would you rather have, as a merchant - a flotilla of galleons, or a single treasure junk?

The answer is pretty obvious. You want the galleons, because your odds of losing all your ships are much lower.

(Pre-1400s Cogs are another issue entirely. They're just bad ships, period)

 

[Generaltsao]

Nah, Japan was still very isolated. Afew ships a year into Dejima? Thats open to you? Japan barely saw any technical innovations between 1600 and 1854. Japan did not industrialize so fast not because it was already pretty advanced and industrialized by that time but because of the pure drive and discipline of the Japanese society to accomplish what it wants working in one concentrated effort not millions of people going every which way thinking for themselves. The Japanese society is quite different from any other. I cite post WWII Japan as an example.

Al;so look at china. China was open to all it just closed its mind of sorts for lack of a better term. Its taken China so long to "modernize" because everybody goes every which way not looking for the end goal but for every single individuals drive for self-interest.

Oh and I'm not anti-Chinese and Japan obsessed if you think so. I'm Chinese, I just see whats really going on and am not held back by nationalism of any kind.

This is a very interesting cultural observation, I have never heard this before but then again my knowledge of Chinese history is not as great as I would like.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Do you believe China discovered America and circumnavigated the world in 1421-1423, like in the book, 1421? I do. Post please!

While I was initially SO sure it happened (I read the book), I am now floundering... Why?

1: Mylodons. They were long extinct by 1421-1423.
2: 1418/1763 map is OBVIOUSLY a fake
3: DNA tests called a "scam" by professionals
4: Gavin Menzies lied about where he was born (he is a Londoner but said he was born in China).
5: Inconsistencies with the timing of evidence (is it from 1410? 1418? 1421? 1423? 1440? 1459? 1528? TELL US!!!!!)
6: Gavin Menzies launched a frivolous lawsuit in 1996.


I really WANT it to be true, but wishful thinking doesn't translate into reality. So, I'd say:
67% No, 33% Yes.

EDIT (from 2009): 100%. As you can see, I was really stupid back then. Reeeeally stupid.

 

[Tee Kay]

That would be a valid comment as well. though I'm not certain how well it applies.

But on a more basic approach,which would you rather have, as a merchant - a flotilla of galleons, or a single treasure junk?

The answer is pretty obvious. You want the galleons, because your odds of losing all your ships are much lower.

(Pre-1400s Cogs are another issue entirely. They're just bad ships, period)

Or would you rather have a flotilla of treasure junks?

The Zheng He fleets have hundreds of ships (maybe thousands, if records aren't exaggerating), and only a few of those are treasure junks. Most are normal junks (although they're still pretty big, as compared to contemporary European ships).

 

[Huayna Capac357]

After reading the book the first time, I was completely sure that it was real. However, I read 1421 another time and it seemed like complete nonsense. I almost feel betrayed by Menzies. I am especially incredulous to the part about Mylodons.

 

[Swedishguy]

It's just another sad attempt to snatch the idea of Europeans being the discoverers.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

It's just another sad attempt to snatch the idea of Europeans being the discoverers.

Yeah. Menzies is just trying to make a buck (or thousands of bucks...)

 

[Tee Kay]

It's just another sad attempt to snatch the idea of Europeans being the discoverers.

No the Asians were the discovers. They crossed to America across the Bering several thousand of years ago and build houses and villages and cities and civilisations. The Europeans were the conquerers.

 

[Zhuge_Liang]

Maybe it goes like this:

The Chinese trasmitted a disease that is both harmful to animals and humans to the far flung traders, who accidentally discovered some islands in the pacific. The contaminated goods were traded to the natives which in turn was traded by the natives in the Americas.

 

[Traitorfish]

Maybe it goes like this:

The Chinese trasmitted a disease that is both harmful to animals and humans to the far flung traders, who accidentally discovered some islands in the pacific. The contaminated goods were traded to the natives which in turn was traded by the natives in the Americas.

Except that there's absolutely no records or evidence of contact, let alone trade, between pre-Columbian America and the Pacific Islands. In fact, the closest we can inarguably say that Pacific Islanders got was Easter Island, and that was anywhere between 500 and 1000 years earlier than the period that would be necessary.

 

[eoc]

I don't believe that.

 

[Esckey]

One big problem I have with the idea is the sheer number of people involved. You would need thousands just cut down the trees, then people to transport and then people to actually cut the wood and finnally the ones building the ships. Add together with everything else you would need, sails, food, equipment, rope. And then put that all ontop of all that the Forbidden City was still being built. Thats a lot of people. Plus I believe it mentions a devestating plague happening sometime aroudn then