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#18 Spoiler discussion

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by golem, Jul 6, 2002.

  1. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

    Feb 3, 2001
    Wow, 1945 for OCC? I far from 1/2 of it. :(
  2. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

    Feb 3, 2001
    About the OCC score. I guess it's much due to the fact that you did a OCC conquest one. You are the only city/civ left. You get a lot bonus point from that.
  3. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    I try to record all hut outcomes in my logs, and will be including a certain screenshot of one series of Pops on the Persian continent (Nomads/ATs).

    I ran several hundred hut pops for that post I made a couple days ago here.

    That setup was at BC4000, and popping 125 huts in a row... I summarized all statistics. The entire map was plains, except for poles, so there was only one landmass. The emphasis was early game Barb & AT info. I had one run with (I think) 6 ATs in a row. I also had a stretch of 6 Techs in a row one time. Never had a really bad (devastating) streak of Barbs (see Brian Reynolds' game philosophy for why).

    No problem... that is where I learned a lot about OCCs, and also from reading the game logs of guys like Smash. OCC play definitely helped my Single Player games, too, BTW. Smash and others at Apolyton used to play OCC games (see the end of the Paulicy), but I don't think they do anymore.

    If enough people are interested in OCC (they are very fast games, and can be done in one sitting), we might do some here at CFC... BTW, I've played some of the same games in the Paulicy (about 4 or 5, long after the competitions were done, just for fun) and my SS year never beat Smash's! ;)

    The Size 4 OCC is interesting.... I did not think I was going to no way no how do THAT.... but sure enough, it worked out fine. I've never tried a Samson game of Size one OCC. :eek:

    What year was it, and what were the scoring breakdowns?
  4. Kev

    Kev Hired Goon

    Feb 23, 2001
    Ringwood, NJ USA
    As a quick note, I'd like to apologize for listing my score. I know it's a no-no even if I didn't mention my ending date. However, it seems like an aberration and I was wondering if someone had an idea as to why the score was so high.
  5. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

    Feb 3, 2001
    It's still going slow.

    Trade, the first cargo from North Colossus city, deliver silk to Veii finally. A new mark of 695 bonus! Next to that was the cargo from Tsingtao to Sparta, 396 bonus. Pretty good for a fast deliver. Sad thing is some of the science bonus wasted. About 600 more beakers was needed for SE. But after these 2 delivery, and 10% science rate, next turn, I got SE, but about 500 beaker was lost. Anyway, I still got the gold to bribe cities, and rush build.

    First ironclad was built, cracked down one Musketeer in Athen, a nearby caravel cracked down a WE, city is empty! Took the city and we get walled Athen with KRC, Oracle. Now the rest of Greek, wait for my diplomats. ;)

    [One thing I don't understand here is Greek have 900+ gold, and they should have Masonry, but they did not get a new capital after fall of Athen. Is this a game option, or because they are under despotism? Any one enlight me? ]

    Not much beside that. Build up canal to the northest of ROME. No much ships at that direction yet.

    The problem, if I can say problem, is no good cargo to deliver. A lot of bead cargo piles up near Port Nara. The highly demanded Dye, Copper, Wine runs out. And we decide to forbid further product of hide to protect animal right. :)

    One of the problem I struggle with was dealing the cargoes on the ship and try to reorganize them in middle of ocean. Finally I figured a way to do it. :)

    Anyway a slow but fun session. Get ready for RR.
  6. LordValuna

    LordValuna High Lord

    Apr 14, 2002
    Hamilton Ontario Canada
    Obviously, the result of hut popping is not random, only pseudo-random.:scan:
    Like the ODEO days for changing govenments which is totally non-random.
    Like the placement of special terrain squares
    And the benefit/result of giving a Tech depends on your power-graph position
  7. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

    Jun 23, 2001
    Southern CA, USA
    Please Submit all games to DoM@civfanatics.net

    This is a different account than what was used for last months game. There were some problems with the old account.
  8. Smash

    Smash Super Lurker Retired Moderator

    Oct 28, 2000
    Vancouver, Canada
    Generally in occ you keep your 2nd non settler.That is enough to eliminate the possibilty of a nomad.Have the settler join the city and I can almost guarantee you will get a nomad.I used to think only 1 per landmass at any given time but now I also beleive the number of cities somehow ties in.There may be, and probably are, other factors.But a good general rule is if you want nomads, then build cities with them ASAP and you'll get more.
  9. grigor

    grigor Prince

    Sep 27, 2001
    Well, unlike the brilliant strategies of Kev and Starlifter, I didn't do a very good job of analysing the starting position this month. I saw that trade was going to be necessary, but I totally misssed the value of pyramids with no WLT*D growth until I captured them from the Egyptians. I handled Marco Polo's especially weakly, unlike Smash's beautiful dance. (Real concert violinists don't necessarily handle all situations so well..LOL) And Starlifter's particularly elegant trade bonuses through foreign trade was something I read about after I limped to a clumsy conquest finish. No fourth place this month - I will be lucky to be in the top half. Basically I couldn't readust my play to the all Fundy game and tried to build a SSC. That wasn't pretty. Top science beakers of 32...

    But clobbering the AI with vet knights remains a lot of fun.

    I tried to get wealthy with temples and bonus tithes, but it was not as successful as foreign trade would have been.

    I bribed the last city just as I was about to get explosives - I suppose I could have changed to a SS game, but the turns were already very long. But what I really like anyway is building railroad lines on a large map, so I should have stayed in a few more turns.

    Next month space ship for sure.
  10. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    I recall Matrix saying that he'd generally prefer people not post their score, but I often do in my logs... it does not matter to me personally that people know ahead of time, but no one should be forced to (e.g., I don't see it as an actual rule that you cannot).

    If you total up the individual scores in your game, see if that agrees with the Civ 2 final score. You get 400 points for the SS, plus 100 for peace, plus 20 for each wonder (about 10 probably... say 200), plus about 24+18=42 for your city (a total guess), plus 25 for a barb.

    Using the suggested entry form from here:

    The above is an estimation of an OCC game in general. So my guess is that the game gave you a bonus in your score of 1945. :)
  11. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    Beads were very valuable in my game because the AI was in Despotism. I found an Egyptian high demand (not a repeater, but frequently re-demanded) bead destination, and then another one in France. I have a pile of beads in a fort next to the empty French city, and when it wants beads, they go in until it no longer wants them. I have a true demand salt repeate (Orleans) and 3 demand hides repeaters. Plus Dye and Wine and Copper, but I don't have that many cities that make the latter 3.

    They need 1000 gold or more at the moment they want to move the capital; 900 is not enough. They do need the gold, but that alone is not enough to guarantee their gov't will flee and form a new capital (new palace city).

    I think there is at least one more factor (contrary to some people's posts), but I have yet to see anyone nail it down (lots of speculation, but no verifiable answers). I have not had time to test this properly, but I know even if a civ has a palace, democracy gov't, all techs researched, 10,000 gold in the bank, and top of the powergraph with several size 20+ cities, that this is not enough to guaratee the AI will move a capital (maybe part of it may have to do with game turn). It's not high on my list to find out (though I did just search the threads at Apolyton for you, and they only have mismash about it). Maybe someone in Scenario design or a European forum might know the exact conditions.... or someone would like to test it? It's a good question.... but the main tactical factor that I'm normally concerned about is how can I stop the AI capital from moving... and I know that by reducing it's gold (one way or another) below 1,000 will end the "Government Escaped to ..." messages, and they won't have an instant palace (capital) anymore when I'm trying to wipe out an entire civ in one turn during late game.

  12. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

    Feb 3, 2001
    So 1000 gold is needed for capital moving? That's a lot for those ancient civs. :) Next time I'll try Rome. They have 1000+ gold. I guess maybe time is the factor you looking for. We witness capital moving in modern age game very often. About no capital move in Democracy, maybe the AI is smart enough to know that they don't need a capital under Democracy. If this is the case, they may do the same under Communism, even Fundy? Just speculations.

    About my trade, I found most bead demander are inland cities. Paris do demand it, but my ship can't reach there yet. I'm waiting for the coming of Corporation, then 2-move freights will make inland trading easier.
  13. Kev

    Kev Hired Goon

    Feb 23, 2001
    Ringwood, NJ USA
    Regarding capitals, did anyone else find that there were a BUNCH of capital moves being made by all of the AI civs?

    This goes back to a discussion in one of the Civ2 forums. I saw TONS of capital movement, and I think it was due to the VERY slow pace of tech that I forced upon the world (both by killing and by design). I think when the AI builds all of the improvements available at that tech level, and deems that it has enough units out there, then it starts building a palace just to basically have something to build. One can see where this would happen more in Deity level given the quickness that the AI can build.

    If I recall correctly, I had two cases where the AI capital bounced all over, only to end up back again at the original capital city. LOL. Again, this makes sense under my theory, as the original capital is more likely to have built all available improvements and have a fair amount of units in the field.

    Just a thought - don't know how it could be put to use, but what the heck.
  14. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

    Feb 3, 2001
    I replayed a bit of GOTM 18 when I get bored with slow late game. DUring the replay I saw a lot of AI Capital move. That means two thing, they have masonry. They don't have much other techs.
  15. texta

    texta Chieftain

    Jul 20, 2002
    out of the shadows i have risen, all will know that i am the greatest civ 2 player ever. I finished in 440 AD. Not to good for me in Diety. MUHAHAHAHAHA
  16. Old n Slow

    Old n Slow Emperor

    Feb 4, 2002
    Vienna, VA, USA
    120 -- 12 cities. 6 AI’s with 26 cities among them 9 (range from 1-9), average 10 techs each (range from 8-14) trade with all, going from 4 Icys, an Un & a Neut to 6 Receptives & peace. Probably should have pushed harder & gone for maps. Traded for Republic twice & received…nothing (note to self, some day research the infinite gifting tech…) Oh, well.
    Time passes -- must be a fun game.
    640 -- 17 cities, 1.5Mil. pop., 24 Techs, 24 turns to get the next tech. Discover the Romans, French, & Egyptians as neighbors.
    980 -- 25 cities, 3Mil pop.
    1260 -- 31 cities, 4.3Mil pop., 30 Techs, I per 9 turns. 5 AI’s with 32 cities among them (Egypt had a fire sale…or rather some fire and sales), average is about 23 techs each (range 19-27)
    1380 -- discover San & opt for Feud over Inv, Mono & 4 other choices
    1530 -- Trade for Feud, get Bridge, hut gives Inv set 80 tax, 20 Sci -- > 2 Wonders to do ASAP
    1540 Find Greeks (maybe some day I’ll give enough to get maps…)
    1600 -- Gunpowder ‘Nuff said
    1620 -- 55 cities, 8M pop.
    1630 -- Last turn built STWA; Persians, who were on the verge of STWA, switch to Leo’s. This turn we finish Leo’s, the Persians abandon Leo’s (but they know Medicine & ST is available -- what causes this idiocy?)
    1660 -- 61 cities, 9M pop. It is an effort for me to push the engineers out to the fringe when there is so much good land waiting to be irrigated -- I’m even leaving some unroaded spaces (old habits die hard, I suppose) 4 AI’s remain (Rome saw the light & joined when the joining was good) 29 targets (oops I mean cities) average 29 techs to my 35 techs. should get around to setting up a boat chain some time.
    1690 - 10M
    1740 -- 11M
    1750 -- discover explosives, opt for Steam
    1756 -- some caravans land -- discover Steam opt for RR?, no, Chivalry, no. …mega typo we choose ATOMIC theory! Yes, yes, and the crowd roars ARGH! (sounds like a new poll for the general discussion -- most aggravating oversight (not rush building the wonder when you were warned, etc.)
    1760 -- French choose to reset their flags as green
    1766 -- 73 cities, 14 Mil pop. 3 AI’s remain, 27 cities among them
    1768 -- 15M pop., now we opt for chivalry
    1780 -- 84 cities, discover chivalry
    1782, -- discover Leadership -- caravans make a world of difference
    1786 -- 18 M pop. Discover Monotheism opt for Mag.
    1788 -- 19M pop., 3 AI’s, 23 cities among them.

    So far so good.
  17. noughmaster

    noughmaster nough-dist

    Jun 30, 2001
    Sydney, Australia
    Well, I've just managed to start this game after the effort of moving house.
    Not having to worry about unhappiness makes it pretty easy.
    I'm in 200AD. I have about 27 techs + 24 cities. I used Marco Polo + gifting techs to accelerate the science race. Now I think I'll close off that avenue because I'm starting to conquer people with Knights + Diplomats. I used my good reputation from gifting techs to reveal everyone's positions. The triremes can island hop to get them all (I think).
    Just got King Richard's Crusade, so I can produce well. I'm researching Navigation. I think I should manage to conquer everyone before 1000AD.
  18. GaryNemo

    GaryNemo Settler from None

    Feb 14, 2002
    Ohio, GMT-4
    I have avoided Knights for a long time, so I could buy Warriors and Horsemen to speed production. It's true, I've lost a lot of Elephants and Crusaders, 10 of them, 26 other casualties, plus 5 Dips and 8 Explorers, wandering into enemy territories. Maybe this time MP and getting maps would have helped.

    1340 AD, Leonardo busy upgrading Cannon etc: Metallurgy, choose Physics over Chivalry, Bridge, Chemistry, Banking, Gravity, Theology. And the Greek walls come tumbling down. Greek caravans scramble demand, we demand tribute, exhausts Greeks, WAR! Sunk Barb Caravel with 4 troops! Fdd Wheate, CornSilke, Piraeus, Suwhala. Hispalis Gems to Kyoto PAID $219+2. Killing Greeks.
    1360 AD, lost an explorer & Crusader, many veteran promotions. Bribe Greek Elephant $162. Abydos Silver to Tokahama PAID $105+1, Fdd Nicomedia, Hut: 50g, Cannon & Crusader storm Athens, $32+60, Oracle, Great Wall, Market. Pop 15390,000 in 76 cities.
    1380 AD, Rome Silk to Kyoto PAID $210+3. IPRB Crusaders for $94. Bribe damaged Elephant for outrageous $312, kill Dip, Bribe another $282.

    1400 AD, PHYSICS, Choose Steam RR over Chivalry, Chemistry Engr, Magnet Fridge, Banking, Gravity, Theology. Just noticed I have Bridge Building! Oops! Rheims fires futily, Delphi repels Barb Legion. Kyoto Dye to Pharsalos PAID $224, Kyoto Salt to Rheims $336! Fdd Edfu Hill Mine. Pop Polar Hut: 2 Barb Knights, bribe Persian Elephant $346! Storm Thermopylae, Barracks, $21. 50,00,50%
    16000,000 pop 77 c, $714 -78, Sci 247/6, Mfg=380 FS=5.7, 36.tech
  19. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

    Feb 3, 2001
    AD 1280 First Ironclad built at Pharsalos. Attack Athen. Take Athen with Oracle and KRC. Bribe two Greek cities: Herakleia and Artemisium. CF with Greek. Caravan arrive Little Bighorn(Tsingtao, Gold, 188, Un) (osaka, silver, 156, un).

    AD 1300 Bribe Sparta(255, disorder) Caravan Arrive Rheims(Capital, Beads, 388, R) Bribe Dijon (french, 128) CF with French. French discover Democracy. CF with ROME, CF with Sioux.

    AD 1320 RR! S-Industry. Talk with ROME, war. kick Rome cat. Greek and Sioux declear war. Bribe Greek cities(3). Cargo arrive Lyons(Gems, Capital, 395,R) Veii(copper, Pasargadae, 296, R); Veii(Copper, TsingTao, 184,R); Veii(Gold, Pasargadae, 148,N);

    AD 1340* Industry!, S-Communist. Darwin's Voyage! Communist, Espionage, S- University. Bribe Sardis.
  20. TimTheEnchanter

    TimTheEnchanter I...am...an Enchanter!

    Jan 19, 2001
    Maryland, USA
    After 15 months, I’m back! For the first time since GOTM 3, I managed to start and complete one of these things – and I didn’t even start until after the 20th! My log is a mess, so I tried to distill some important facts (hope I got them right) and other bits of wisdom.

    Basic strategy going in:
    Take maximum advantage of fundamentalism tithes.
    Sleaze to get many, many cities.
    Get trade for caravans for both wonders and science boosts.
    Get Monotheism, build Mikes, and then rake in automatic tithes from many small cities.
    Finally, kick ass with rush built crusaders (later dragoons) and - most importantly - diplomats with deep pockets.

    Key dates:
    First city: 3950bc
    First tech: 2650bc (alphabet)
    First colony on new continent: 1150bc (Nagasaki)
    First contact with foreign civ: 900bc (Romans)
    First domestic trade goods delivery: 825bc
    First wonder: 625bc (MPE)
    First foreign trade goods delivery: 75bc (Hides delivered to Thebes)

    Situation in Ad1:
    Population 1,560,000, 2 wonders (MPE, MC), 20 techs, 30 cities

    Wonders Built:
    MPE 625bc
    Mikes 75bc
    Leos 260ad
    SunTzu 500ad
    Great Wall 600ad
    Magellan 720ad
    Oracle 800ad
    JS Bach 860ad
    Copernicus 880ad
    KRC 1020ad
    Shakespeare 1040ad

    Wonders Captured
    Lighthouse 460ad (Athens)
    Hanging Gardens 540ad (Corinth)
    Great Library 740ad (Little Bighorn)
    Pyramids 780ad (Orleans)
    Colossus 1080 (Thebes).

    Selected techs
    Map making - 2150bc
    Trade – 1000bc
    Writing – 800bc
    Polytheism – 625bc
    Monotheism – 250bc
    Invention - 25bc
    Gunpowder - 260ad
    Navigation – 500ad
    Theology – 760 ad
    Explosives – 1060ad

    Civs destroyed:
    Romans 120ad
    Sioux 760
    Greeks 780
    French 900
    Egyptians* 1080
    Persians 1080
    *Thebes was Pet City trading partner for centuries

    Had early uncertainty on tech path. Wavered between ships, trade, dips, and “–theisms”. I waited too long to get diplomats – cost more to rush early units because no 30 shield unit.

    I still have a hard time sticking with sleaze techniques as number of cities grows. Didn’t micromanage production queue or rush-building enough to really do it right. Often abandoned settlers or caravan production for units to explore, fight wars

    Didn’t trade techs aggressively enough with AIs, even with MPE. Didn’t give much at all to key civ (Sioux).

    More tech uncertainty: After invention, started going for Navigation to upgrade to caravels before going after gunpowder. Ended up changing direction halfway through and getting gunpowder first.

    Didn’t deliver enough camels. Could have seriously accelerated science with aggressive deliveries.

    Didn’t realize that Bach generated tithes until late in the game– could have researched theology and built it much sooner than I did and had much more cash to work with.

    Sloppy management where I didn’t watch production carefully, didn’t plan ahead well, and stopped sleazing for a while once I started to go out conquering.

    Probably should have gone for celebrations everywhere once I had HG. Didn’t think of it until the end.

    Didn’t trade techs to share maps with Persians when I should have. Once they were the only civ left, I knew where their early cities were, but I hadn’t figured out how to actually get to them. Wasted a lot of time trying to find ways to get there, and finding the last few cities. To a lesser extent I spent a few unnecessary turns hunting for the last French and Greek cities as well.

    Other random thoughts:
    MPE was invaluable for getting important techs, contacting other civs, and getting maps early to find civs. I could have spent centuries looking for the last Persian city, had I not exchanged maps one last time. That city was not at all near where I thought it would be.

    Built Sun Tzu and Great Wall mostly to keep them out of the hands of other civs. Some wonders were built more for score than usefulness (Shake’s, Cope’s)

    Had a couple hide repeaters who kept dumping hide caravans onto Thebes (repeat hides demand) which had Colossus. Three more hide repeaters were added mid to late game to push final tech advances.

    Once I had HG, I hired an elvis in the Hides cities (they were only size 4) to keep them in celebration to increase payouts. Of course I put elvis to work on a trade square when I delivered. ;)
    As end game approached, most cities were cranking out settlers and plopping them into every nook and cranny I could find to get more tithes. (also more population points) I had enough cash, I probably could have gotten up to 255 cities (very small ones!) had I really been trying to rush more settlers and sail them to other continents. I was getting over 1000g per turn for the last couple hundred years and didn’t spend it all.

    I could have researched more wonder techs (TOG, Democracy, Economics) instead of University-Chemistry-Explosives near end of game. Although 2-move engineers really helped plop down cities for the last 2 turns, I’m not sure which would have helped score more – probably the wonders

    I didn’t read the Power Fundy description before playing (Still haven’t really studied it). It probably would have helped me. Even so, I was making around 1500g and researching at a rate of 1 every 7 turns (not counting camels) at the very end. I had science pegged at 50 until the last turn and only created trade caravans every few turns as I could afford them while still inciting cities and rushing other units. Most caravans did not pay for the rushed shields because cities were so small, but I was doing it for the beakers. Probably should have had caravans flowing much more frequently.

    If my notes are correct, I added 97 cities (88 built, 8 captured, 1 advanced tribe) between 920 and the end of the game in 1080 (9 turns). 63 of those were in the last three turns when I took all my settlers/engineers and had them stop working to go build cities wherever possible.

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