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#18 Spoiler discussion

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by golem, Jul 6, 2002.

  1. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    Here is my 1,000 year mid-game log.....

    Comments and pix to follow shortly.


    ----------------------- AD 0001 ---------------------------

    Pop: 001.1M (Fundy)
    Tax: 70% (72g, cost=0g, 1811g in bank)
    Sci: 00% (00b, 0T) (22 Total Adv, researching Medicine; Advs cost about 720b)
    Lux: 30%
    Prod: 044MT (0T poll, 0 polluted tiles)
    Cities: 05 (killing one)
    Wonders: 4 (Ancient: Pyr,Col,LH; Ren: MPE)

    Romans: 5 cities
    French: 4 cities
    Egypt: 8 cities
    Persians: 8 cities
    Greeks: 8 cities
    Sioux: 4 cities

    FORCES (Many are NONEs):
    02 Settlers
    03 Warriors
    01 Phalanx
    01 Archers
    01 Chariot
    02 Trireme
    03 Dips
    08 Caravans (5 in prod, out of 5 cities!)

    AD 0001 making 5 Caravans .... A02-Heliopolis(Hides,480g,D,rec); A02-Heliopolis(Gold,240g,N)
    AD 0020 Medicine; S-Sanitation; Persians-Start GL
    AD 0040 Supreme. A02-Heliopolis(Hides,512g,D,rec); A02-Heliopolis(Hides,512g,D);
    AD 0060*Sanitation; S-University
    AD 0080 Egy
    AD 0100 French capture Roman Pisase, Take Literacy; A02-Heliopolis(Hides,542g,D,rec); A02-Heliopolis(Hides,256g,N); Set 20-50-30;
    AD 0120 University; S-Republic (Chem, Inv, IW, Mon, Rep, Sea, ToG); Egypt-Demanded 50g tribute(NO), Stole Republic from Alexandra;
    AD 0140* Egypt Declares War; A02-Heliopolis(Hides,552g,D,rec); A02-Heliopolis(Salt,276g,N); Build KRC(buy for 200g);
    AD 0180 Persians-GREAT LIBRARY; French, Egyptians abandon GL
    AD 0200 Banking; S-Chemistry (Chm, Eco, Inc, IW, Mon, Sea, ToG); A02-Alexandra(Spice,632g,D,rec); Bribe Alexandria(1092g-107,Sell Grn, Set,War,Pha,Arc,Tri(90%); Lib; Mkt; No Anarchy, Sz5); Refused CF; IPRB Bank.
    AD 0220* A02-Heliopolis(Hides,552g,D); Barracks-Alexandra; Set 30-50-20.
    AD 0240 Chemistry; S-Economics; A02-Heliopolis(Gems,658g,D,rec);
    AD 0260 A02-Heliopolis(hides,568g,D); IPRB Sewer in A02
    AD 0280 A02-Heliopolis(Gems,720g,D,rec); A02-Heliopolis(hides,568g,D);
    AD 0300* A02-Giza(hides,480g,D); IPRB SE off old Sewer; Broke 5,000 gold in bank.
    AD 0320 Building up forces of 5 Vet Crusaders. A02-Thebes(Dye,608g,D); Food-B0x-A02

    USE MARCO POLO...........
    -- Contact-French-SWAP-Republic for Seafaring; Peace?(YES); Gift-Philosophy; Swap Maps; Ally?(no); End;
    -- Contact-Sioux-Demanded Republic(yes); Gift-Philosophy (Uncoop), Wri (neutral), WC(receptive), Univerisity(Enthusiastic); Seafaring (Worshipful); Swap maps.
    -- Persian Peace?(NO); Swap Mon for Eng(NO... mon no workie); Gift-2ndChoice Chem(Cordial),Banking(Enthus), Swap Maps(yes); end.
    -- Contact-Greek-Demand break Sious treaty(NO), demand 150g Tribute(YES, I have over 5,000 gold & want their IW); Peace?(YES, neutral); Swap?(YES) Gift-Philosophy, Chemistry(Worshipful), SWAP Republic for Ironworking (Worship); Swap Maps?yes; End.

    AD 0340 C04 is paying support now (9 units). A02-Giza(Hides,584g,D); Food to A02
    AD 0360 A02-Thebes(Beads,332,N); A02-Giza(Hides,616,D); Capture-Thebes(135g, HG, Walls,no Anarchy); Food to A02
    AD 0380* French capture Roman Hispalis (Construction); Monarchy; S-Feudalism; A02-Giza(Beads,292,N); Divert ship to Revolt El-Armna (39g-18,sz1,empty, no Anarchy); Egypt-CF?(NO),200g?(YES), Peace?(NO), 200g?(YES); Subvert Helioplis(168x2-16,Grn, Walls, War,Arc, was making Courthouse, no anarchy); B0x food to A02;
    AD 0400 Make Caravans, reposition chips
    AD 0420 ditto
    AD 0440 ditto
    AD 0460*HUT-Nomad; HUT-Adv Tribe; A02- Elephantine(Gold,372,N); A02- Elephantine(Spice,372,N); Bribe-2xChariot(67g); NOT A SINGLE GOV'T IS IN REPUBLIC.... STRANGE
    AD 0480 French & Romans sign alliance against GREEKS, LOL!! Demad Tribute-Egypt(WAR!); Revolt-280-16); Bribe-Warrior(22g,NONE)

    ----------------------- AD 500 ---------------------------

    Pop: 003.31M (Fundy)
    Tax: 80% (352g, cost=028g, bank=5,596g)
    Sci: 00% (000b, 0T) (34 Total Adv, Researching Feudaism; Advs cost 1216b)
    Lux: 20% (C06, A02-SGC in WLTPriest Day)
    Prod: 060MT (60T poll, 0 polluted tiles)
    Cities: 16
    Wonders: 6 (Ancient: Pyr,Col,LH,HG*; Ren: KRC,MPE) *=captured

    None Eliminated yet

    FORCES (Many are NONEs):
    09 Settlers (0 in prod)
    07 Warriors
    03 Phalanx
    06 Archers
    03 Chariots
    06 Crusaders (1 in prod)
    12 Trireme (1 in prod)
    06 Dips (3 in prod)
    31 Caravans (9 in prod)
    02 Explorers

    AD 0500 HUT-3Barbs; Revolt-Memphis(275-18,Grn,Mkt, War, Pha, 2xSett, was making Trireme, Sz4, No Anarchy)
    AD 0520 A02-Pompeii(Gems,308,N); bribed barb horse(2x41g); Revolt-Byblos(165-12; barracks,1 War)
    AD 0540*Feudalism; S-Theology; Sell all Barracks; Warrior ran into a barb Legion.... dead meat now.; WAR-Romans (I refuse tribute)
    AD 0560 Contact-Rome, refuse tribute, CF?(YES), Peace?(YES, Neutral), gift-University,Monarchy(Enthusiastic); swap maps; Revolt-PiRamesses(216g-19,2xArch, 1War, was bldg Courthouse, no improvements); A05-A02 food
    AD 0580 A02-Cumae(Gems,880,D,rec);

    AD 0600 vet Phal Fort on Hill def. Barb Legion@C12; Killed Ldr@C12; Found C00; Revolt-Arebela(252g-62,Brk, Harb, Archer, Making Sett, Sz2); A02-Elephantine(hides,816,D);

    AD 0620*Theology; S-Chivlary (choices Inv, Chv, Nav); A02-Hispalis(Beads,824,D); A02-Hispalis(Dye,824,D); Revolt-Hieraconpolis(54-6, 1War only, no Anarchy, was making Courthouse); Bribe barb Legion (82g,C12)

    AD 0640 A02-Elephantine(Hides,880,D,rec-Tie); A02-Elephantine(Cu,880,D); HUT-Crusaders; A02 is size 20 now. Bribe Persian Catapult (142g,NONE); Killed Catapult;

    AD 0660 Navigation; S-Physics; MICHELANGELOS CHAPEL (633-486=147g per turn due to MC+Theology!!) ; Found A03; A02-Sparta(Dye,552,D-Cut due to Nav discovery); A02-Sparta(Beads,552,D Dye Demand now unfulfilled); A02-Pharsalos(Wool,412,D); HUT-Adv Tribe (same cont as the other AT & 2 nomads),

    AD 0680 HUT-Atomic Theory, LOL.... ; Bribe 2 barb horse (2x41g,D10)

    AD 0700*MAGELLANS VOYAGE; Bribe 1 barb horse (41g,D10)

    AD 0720 1st Oil (no demand); A02-Chart(Gemds,728,D); A02-Elephantine(Hides,440,D); Bribe Beat Up Barb Horseman (41g,D10); Revolt-Sidon(246-56g,1 War, was making Catapult, No Anarchy); Met Persinas-CF?(NO),Peace?(YES)

    AD 0740 HUT-Crusader; HUT-50g; A02-Elephantine(Hides,440,D); ; HUT-Invention (on Roman Continent, southern); Completed Leo Wkshp (incl disband diplomat to save freight)

    (Note: It turns out that this is where the PF One Turn Per Advance began.....)

    AD 0760 C-Steam Engine; Steam Engine; S-Gunpowder (Demo: No, not needed, GP:Yes!, Mag: NO, RR:NO,HG); LEONARDOS WORKSHOP; A02-Cumae(Beads,412,D); A02-Chartres(Gems,728,D); A02-Athens(Salt,508,D); Bribed-Persian Elephant (158g,E04); HUT-Legion (south Island); HUT-Horde (6 horsemen, Roman area); Bribed Barb Horseman; Assembling Team to attack eastern huts.

    AD 0780* Gunpowder; S-Explosives; Bribe-Barb Horse(41g,NONE,from Prior hut); A02-Rheims(Gems,1020,D,rec); A02-Chartres(Dye,492,D); A02-Elephantine(Gold,220,N); 16 new Vet Ironclads in Production; Cost of IPRBs went up by 10g (gunpowder); Want Refrigeration (Metallurgy, Elect(&kills GL!) next); Found Bi1 (Instant Harbor)

    AD 0800 Explosives; S-Metallurgy; bribe Persian Elephant (214g,NONE); HUT-Musketeer(NONE,west cont); Bribe Barb houseman (NONE, from Hut); ; A02-hispalis(Silk,642,D); A02-Chartres(Dye,492,D); A02-Argos(Silver,630,D); Subvert-Bactra(2x243-55, Archer, Sell Grn); A02-Elephantine(Hides,440,D)

    AD 0820 Metallurgy; S-Magnetism; Persian & Greeks sign Secret Alliance against Japs; Romans-SNEAK ATTACK-Killed my Knight; HUT-50g (Roman Cont); HUT-Musketeer (team); HUT-50g (South team); HUT- Barb Kinghts (Roman team); Bribe-Barb Knights (2x82g,NONE); A02-Chartres(Gems,738,D); A02-LittleBighorn(Wine,860,D); Over 10,000 gold in bank; HUT-Crusaders; A02-Elephantine(Hides,440,D)

    Mini Stats: Bank: 10,800+, Ironclads: 18+7, Caravels: 23+5, Caravans: 53+7

    AD 0840 magnetism; S-Electricity; Sneak Attack-Persian warrior lost to my Mtn Crusader; HUT-50g; A02-Lyon(Beads,724,D); A02-Elephantine(Hides,440,D); Revolt-Antioc(544-68,BK,GR,MK,Arc); Persians-CF?(NO,300g?(YES), Peace?(NO); Subvert(2x132,War,making Walls); Met Persians; Peace?(NO), CF "expired"; HUT-50g (Team 2); A02-Chartres(Gems,738,D); A02-LittleBighorn(hides,344,N,(mistake)); A02-LittleBighorn(Dye,688,D); Start making Lots of Engineers for upcoming Refrigeration

    AD 0860*Electricity; S-Refrigeration; JSBACH; Advances cost 2026b; A02-Rheims(Gems,1062,D,rec); A02-Rheims(Wine,885,D); HUT-Cursader(NONE, by Tyre); Gift-Sioux Nav, Inv (No to GP & SE) (Sci cost=1936b, saving 90b per advance); Greece-Peace?(YES), Demand Tribute-625g!! Prebuild code = Walls

    AD 0880 Refrigeration; S-Leadership; Building Supermarkets in almost ALL cities but SGC. A02-Pharsalos(Silver,515,D); Took Ravenna (29g); Sunk Barb Caravel in ocean (5 units killed); HUT-Barbs (6 Knights, 1 musket on Mtn; my Crusader is Dead Meat); A02-Orleans(Salt,756,D); A02-Orleans(Wine,945,D); Bribed Sioux War, Phx (67, 126, NONEs), Explorer;

    AD 0900 Leadership; S-Democracy; A02-Lyon(Hides,724,D); A02-Wounded Knee(Wine,840,D); A02-Wounded Knee(hides,672,D); Killed-Ldr; over 16,500 gold; Spent about 4,000 on SMs; Bribed Sioux Warrior (69g, NONE); HUT-Dragoons (NONE, Roman Cont); HUT-25g (team 2); HUT-Musketeers (Team 1); Killed Lrd at C12; Persians-Peace?(NO), 100g?(NO), dmd tribute(WAR!); Greeks Declare War (Alliance); Revolted Pharsolas(678g-80,GR,MK,Phx,Set,Sz2,making Dip,no Anarchy); Greeks offer CF(NO), 1150g????? (YES YES!! New World's Record!!), Peace?(NO WAY).

    AD 0920 Democracy; S-Conscription; 27 SMs in one turn. ; A02-Slim Buttes(Beads,776,D); A02-Slim Buttes(Wine,970,D); ; Revolt Slim Buttes(695-115,War,Phx, Caravel, no Anarchy); Bribe Grk Phx (165g, NONE), Grk Sett (368g, NONE); Bribe Sioux Musketeer, war (138, 53, NONEs); HUT-Dragoon (NONE, Bear Paw Island);

    AD 0940*Conscription; S-Tactics; HUT-3 Barb Knights, Team 2; A02-Athens (Salt,516,D); A02-Thermophyle (Silver,520,D); A02-Argos (Silver,630,D); Bribe-Greek Sett (276g, 236g,NONEs); Killed Barb Tri (5); Bribe 2 Persian Elephants (106, 100g K06); Capture LBH (119g,ORACLE,BK,Sz4,No Anarchy); A02-Wounded Knee(hides,648,D); A02-Lyons(Beads,748,D); A02-Lyons(Hides,748,D); A02-Thessolonica(Salt,302,N); HUT-South Pole-2 Barb Knights; Bribe 1(82g), other Dip is Dead Meat; Will keep Bear Paw as Pet.

    AD 0960 Tactics; S-Fundamentalism; ADAM SMITH; Sneak Attack-French Tri on my Galleon; Revolt-Kildeer(64g-24;Phx,Sett,no Anarchy, RB SM); Barb Knight did NOT attack-it disappeared; Greeks - Peace?(NO), 200g?(YES); HUT-50g (Team 3); HUT-50g (Team 4, Persia); Bribe Persian Warriors(51g,115,NONE), Phx(306g,NONE,next to Capital); A02-Orleans(Salt,756,D); A02-Orleans(Wine,945,D); ; A02-Corinth(Salt,700,D)

    AD 0980 Fundamentalism; S-Amphib War; Bribe-Greek Sett (288g, NONE); Legion (144, NONE); War (53g, NONE); Sci Cost=2346b; Gift Sioux ALL but Fundy & Tactics; Swap Maps; Sci cost = 1632b; HUT-Adv Tribe (East Cont); Bribe barb horse (41g, from Hut long ago); Killed Ldr at C15; Bribe-Barb Elephant (82g,NONE,at Rouen); Killed Barb Stack (Rouen); Capture-Persepolis(24g,GR,No Anarchy); Bribe 2 Persian Sett(200,NONEs); Revolt Pasagrade(228-28,BK,GR,CW, GREAT LIBRARY, 2 Arch, NoAnarchy); Revolt-Susa (236g-23,BK,GR,LB,Phx,Lg, No Anarchy); Bribe-Sioux Sett (176g,NONE); A02-Cedar Creek(Dye,688,D); A02-Cedar Creek(Cu,688,D);A02-Cedar Creek(Coal,344,N); Bribe Sioux War(22g,NONE); Subvert Cedar Crk (2x270-17,GR,HB,3Units,No Anarchy); Met Sioux (CF "Expired"); Revolt Wounded Knee (159-6,GR,HB,Phx,No Anarchy); bribed Roman War, Leg (51,230,NONEs); Bribed French Wr (117g,NONE)

    ----------------------- AD 1000 ---------------------------

    Pop: 6.79M (Fundy); Score 584
    Tax: 80% (1179g/cost=153g)
    Sci: 00% (000b, 0T) (54 Total Adv, Researching Railroad; Advs cost about 1716b)
    Lux: 20% (Some cities in WLTPriest Day)
    Prod: 220MT (110T poll, 0 polluted tiles)
    Cities: 47
    Wonders: 14 (Ancient: Pyr,Col,LH,HG*,OR*,GL*; Ren: STWA,KRC,MPE,MC,ME; Ind: LW,JSB,AS) *=captured

    65 Engineers (12 in prod)
    13 Musketeers
    49 Riflemen
    06 Fanatics (6 in prod)
    01 Elephants
    01 Crusaders
    01 Knights
    30 Cavalry
    02 Cannon
    32 Galleons (2 in prod)
    25 Destroyers
    23 Diplomats (3 in prod)
    65 Caravans (16 in prod)
    04 Explorers

    AD 1000 Amphib War; S-Railroad; A02-Neapolis(Silk,564,D); A02-Neapolis(Wool,188,N); A02-Neapolis(Gold,188,N); Capture-Neapolis(-35g,no Anarchy); Capture-Antium(GR,MK,,no Anarchy); Rome-CF?(NO), 200g?(YES), Peace?(NO), End; Bribed 2 Roman Horse(2x69,NONE); A02-Athens(Salt,516,D); Greek-Dmd Tribute-WAR!; Bribe-French Warriors(145,115g); Capture-Athens(26,BK,no Anarchy); Bribe Elephant, Archer, War (102Athens, 76NONE, 26NONE); Revolt-Stony Lake(106-10,GR,2Units,Sz3,No Anrchy); Bribe Greek Sett (204,NONE); A02-Thess(Gold,298,N); Capture Thess(-7,No Anarchy); Revolt-Delphi(244-14,MK,GR,4Units,Sz3,No Anarchy); Revolt-Mycenae(244-13,GR,Archer,Sz3,No Anarchy); A02-Argos(Silver,600,D); Revolt-Argos(120-12,BK,GR,MK,no Ana); Bribed French War,Leg66,246,NONEs)


    EDIT: Improve formatting.
  2. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    Comments so far:

    After about AD0500, I inserted spaces between years to make it more readable.

    Gold. At peak, I hit over 20,000 gold in the bank. This was because of the low-maintenance empire, and no real growth for a very long time. That's bad for GOTM score, but good for gold and science. I simply could not spend the gold, even though every other turn every city was producing something. No city was actually making anything from scratch.

    My only large city is my SGC:

    1 - Size 21 (SGC)
    1 - Size 10 (Captial)
    1- Size 8
    1 - Size 7
    4 - Size 6
    Everything else is below 6.

    I used 6 or 7 food caravans from several cities (4 food routes) to help the SGC grow.... the food routes continue to feed the SGC, but at the expense of those source cities.

    The Lux are 20%, which is what the SGC needs to maintain celebration. At first it was 40%, then 30%, and now 20% (with MK-BK-SE). This is mainly for Lux, but of course it really helps gold too (235 gold per turn ). Note my stellar 2 beakers of science output. This is the total output of my entire empire. Multiply this by the reported number of turns for an andvance, and walla--- you know the exact amount of trade you need to deliver to get the nexat advance. Short on a turn? easy. Gift the Sioux.

    Well, this is "Power Fundamentalism" in action, and it can be quite tedious & slow going. I will diagram the exact mid game trade routes in a later post, for those who might like to see how it's working from low earth orbit....

    It is my opinon that the PF will not lend itself well to high GOTM scores, as it does not result in a fast win nor WLT_ growth.

    I have never played a game that was this dominate in terms of gold early on, but that's because of the early Fundy. Fundy is fun for a romp, but is obviously not well balanced if used from BC4000 (as expected; however, it is rather run for a change of pace!). There are many subtle effects of early Fundy... one can really run wild when no support shield costs to hold you back in the early years.... Run wild in all aspects except growth, that is :(.

    Sidenote: it would be interesting to try a game of "Set Democracy"... that is, play Demo from 4000BC ;). Talk about an early game mess with unhappiness fo units away, hehe..... UNLESS..... Smash would "spot" the human the wonder of Womens Sufferage! Now that would be nice and doable.... but I digress. But THAT could really be good, esp. at Emperor perhaps.

    Back to the game.... There were several major trade route shifts. The first trade system was with the Egyptians, and I let one city survive with several freight standing by in case they were needed to continue the once advance per turn.

    The most radical shift was about AD0400, when the routes had to move south for two reasons.

    1. I needed the Egyptian cities for myself, esp. the Hanging Gardens for happiiness.

    2. Navigation. The 200% bonus was kaput, and so longer distances were needed to keep the bonuses maxed.

    The southern shift began to the west coast of the Roman continent, and gradually shifted further south in stages, while ships trudged along the southwestern shore looking for more lucrative trade partners.

    The final shift was to several French cities that earn survival because of the demands (repeaters in hides, salt, dye, copper, wines, and beads). It takes 8 7-move hops to get freight down there, and a full chain is almost always used. The excess that accumulates in post-industrialization are put into forts by the cities. A vet destroyer wipes out any AI units that are built in the AI cities.

    In AD0900, I set a new record for an AI offer for early game cease fire... 1150 gold!! Unbelievable. Another time it was 600, and I was able to get out of the treaty on the same turn. My reputation is and has been spotless, as usual.

    There may be comments in the log somewhere about the AIs being in Despotism. The AI was just not growing cities the way I expected, and now I know why.... it is a limitation of the "Set Fundy" game setup. LOL, it was annoying me at one point till I discovered the mention of it in the threads.

    About trade bonus.... I had a few 1,000+ gold caravans before railroad, around the AD0860 time frame. Most are only about 600 to 700 though, including after Corp. Never dally after RR with getting to Corp, assuming you are using trade (and assuming you like gold and beakers!).

    As mentioned before, I'm keeping some AI cities around gor trade bonus reasons, if they have the demand and distance I'm looking for (namely, 4 French cities, one eqyptian, one Greek, and the Sioux Pet). Shortly a few Frenchies will bite the dust..... sooner if they become non-repeaters. In any even, all after flight except for the Sioux pet, as SHs and Airports outweigh the foriegn bonus (since none of them will have SHs or Apts).

    Here is my SGC (Super Gold City... I never made a SSC, which is not efficient in Fundamentalism):

    Here is my Power Graph:

    And the Demographics:

    EDIT: add more info.
  3. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    Map and flow of Mid Game trade

    I have made a special graphic that I'm not going to post as a pic yet, since it gives away a great deal of info that some people may not yet wnt to see even in the Spoiler thread. It is a "low-orbit" screenshot of my core empire to the lucrative trade destinations by the south pole. However, I will post a link to it, and you can download the graphic.... this way, if someone does not want to be "corrupted" by seeing the detailed map, they won't.

    This map was shortly after AD1000. RR is discovered (trade cut by 33%), but after Corp is discovered (freight 50% bonus). The trade destinations are tiny, no-capital, probably very high corruption cities. Any regular trade partner must yield 700+ gold/brks to be spared the revolt of my mighty Diplomats (which stand ready next to each trade city).

    What is the most valuable commodity in the game, as measured by gross contribution of Gold and Science? Easy: hides. They are repeatedly demanded in several places. I also have a French salt repeater, worth 700 for every Salt caravan I can scrape up. Hides get about 750 (to different cities, but same demand bonus, namely none).

    BTW, cities that make hides (repeaters) do almost nothing else.

    How do I figure what to build? easy. What do the cities want? Then look at trade advisor and find who makes it. I don't deliver undemanded cargo one third of a world away. If a city wants hides, then all my cities that make hides drop what they are doing, and pump hides out. Ditto with Gems, Dye, Copper, Wine, Beads and Salt. Everything else is nice, but no cigar (unless a faraway demand arises). Commodities like Coal, Spice and Gold sit idle at the SGC docks, in case of future demand.

    The flow goes from the SGC to the destinations. The ships themselves are nothing. Pump them out, and pulse them down the line. Whatever happens to them at that point is inconsequential, but generally, they try and wander back or take a hut-popping team and hunt barbs, AI warriors & settlers (NONEs), or maybe go snag a city.

    The key is never ever allow yourself to run out of ships at the SGC. No ship at the SGC means no advance next turn, unless you can make and defend a stockpile down the line (which is difficult before Industrialization!).

    The primary flow is in red. The caravans are stored in the light blue circles, and are delivered to the French cities and the Sioux pet city (they are circled in red). The exact route is shown by the red arrows. each individual arrow is a single ship's path. Total up the arrows, and that is how many ships it takes (or # of turns if no chain) to get there.

    The return flow of ships, as well as the feeder routes to the SGC are shown in yellow. Rail links the overland segments in the core empire & old Egypt.

    Eventually, you can set up a return flow (the yellow arrows in my map)

    Here is the map and trade details of mid-game (65KB JPEG):

    Attached Files:

  4. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    You might try trading with the Sioux or French. Rush buy a bunch of ships, and let 'em rip.

    Remember that only the Base Trade of a city counts (that is, minus the value of the 3 trade routes). Your capital sounds like a good trade hub. Build a Harbor, MK, BK, & SE. Put all possible citizens in the water & on trade specials, increase Lux until it celebrates, then drop the Lux to about 20% (just enought to keep it celebrating). Then run caravans from it to faraway AI cities across the water.

    If you can use the Colossus city for trade too, irrigate and make it grow, and buy it a harbor, MK, BK, and SE too. Hopefully, it is an oceanside city :).

    As your get faster ships, you should expand your trade further away than the Romans to get the biggest payouts. The Egyptians were also too close after Nav, so killing Egypt was not that bi a loss. :)
  5. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    by onejayhawk:
    You can use the Find function to find any wonder city, including undiscovered cities. :)

    We have some good early conquer playrs. Cactus Pete was about the best from the old days of last year. This map would be a tough one for an early finish, however, as locating opponents is difficult in early years...

    by Narz:
    If you are superior, you can gift about 5 or 6 techs and swap maps with them. That's what I usually do at some point, to make sure I find all their cities (both for trade and for conquer). But kill them quick if you gift them military tech (they decide the 2 choices they will take :( ).
  6. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

    Feb 3, 2001
    The problem is I don't know where Sioux is yet. :( French seems to be far way.

    Good idea. Yes, it's a coastal city. Even better, it has a short river. :) But there are forest arround :( It's on north pole, I don't have enough settlers there to build road, canals, etc. Is SE=supermarket? I' far from it yet. :(

  7. Marlos

    Marlos Christian Soldier

    Nov 28, 2001
    Canton, MI, USA
    SE = Stock Exchange, dude
  8. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    If the Sioux have a wonder, use the Find function to locate the city where the wonder is. It will take 8 to 10 turns for the first ships with caravans to arrive in France, but the payout will be thousands of gold and science. I was (am) running over 30 ships in this game, just for transprting caravans, freight and dips. Once the long chain of ships is estabished, you'll get an advance per turn.

    SE= Stock Exchange.

    I have a list of terms (and more) here:

  9. anarchywrksbest

    anarchywrksbest Deity

    Jan 25, 2002
    Northern Ireland
    :nono: Starlifter, that find city trick is banned in the rule i think....
  10. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

    Feb 3, 2001
    Thanks a lot Marlos. :) Then it's further from me than SM. In this game SM have higher priority than SE. SM can make city grow faster, which is essential for a fundy only game. :)
  11. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    Not that I know of; however, it is possible that something might be in thread discussions from last October to this past May when I was gone.

    The only rule change I was aware of is not using Airfields anymore.

    However, I think Duke is going to consolidate the rules into the rules page so it is easier for people to find them (e.g., not needing to use the Search function to sift thru threads).

    Update: Do you know where you noticed the Civ 2 Find Function restriction? I still didn't have luck locating it. :eek:
  12. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

    Feb 3, 2001
    I have 15 triremes now all over the world. I'm still exploring. Yeah, maybe ship-chain is something I have to build. Still, I don't think I can get as much bonus as you do. I checked yr post, and found out that your SSC having 100+ trade, 78 base trade. My capital is only making 33 base trade. The Colossus city is making up to 28.

    I can see that Sioux is making contact with Rome. I may swap map with one of them.

    Thanks. It's helpful.
  13. anarchywrksbest

    anarchywrksbest Deity

    Jan 25, 2002
    Northern Ireland
    :nono: The Ship Chain isn't allowed either, more the pity...
  14. Old n Slow

    Old n Slow Emperor

    Feb 4, 2002
    Vienna, VA, USA
    Reading through Starlifter's stuff :eek: is exciting/uplifting/ at least very enjoyable. If nothing else, it is fun to watch a harmless exercise of enormous power at work. :goodjob:

    For my part, I wanted to see if I could avoid one of my weaknesses to overdevelop and instead build more cities -- results are somewhat mixed, but hopeful. So far:

    -3900 -- Hut -- Currency (one of the five techs I wanted next)
    -3800 -- Kyoto (founded with a road for an arrow); decided to research Alphabet
    -3600 Warrior off & searching
    -3500 -- Hut -- Masonry (another of the five techs I wanted)
    -3000 -- Osaka
    -2950 - Kyoto builds a settler (Hey we’re most advanced! look at the great science of the Fundy research staff!)
    -2550 -- Discover Alphabet, now opt for Writing (need to record the amazing fact of the previous line (lol). Three cities, now, three searchers, three settlers in process; barbs appear -- and we have no dips & no defenders…
    -2400 -- Hut -- Archer -- Yes! (just in time, but a bit away from the action.
    -2250 -- sacrifice a Warrior to the chariot/Barb leader; The chariot then dies to the rush built settler hiding in Kyoto (which is now building a wonder); And the horse arrives in time to punish said Leader. Yes oh yes (two new settlers arrive next turn) my archer becomes an Archer (vet) with the other chariot.
    -2100 -- 2nd Bl (yes again)
    -1800 -- 3rd Bl, but at the cost of a settler
    -1750 -- learn writing (800 years--which is about how long it took me to learn how to write, lol), opt for map making
    -1450 -- At 5 cities, one at size 3, the rest at size 1.
    -950 -- learn maps, opt for Code of Laws 4th Barb team shows, but the leader gets away (rats)
    -725 -- 4th in land area, 7th in military service, 2nd in lit, 1st in remainder; pop = 250K, have 9 cities; 3 boats in prod., 3 sett, 3 dips, one each of pha, horse, Arch.
    -650, -- discover Code, opt for Trade
    -475 -- French build Hanging Gardens
    -375 -- Persia builds Col.
    -325 -- have Trade, go for Lit; now have 11 cities
    -75 -- have Lit, go for Math;
    20 -- Build LH (2nd wonder, already have Pyr)
    80 -- Build MPE; 12 cities; 2nd in approval & land, 7th in mil, 1st in rest. 6 sett, 1 (2in prod) pha, I Ar, I H, 4 boats, 4 dip, 3 car (8 in prod)
    Am further along, will log later.
  15. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

    Feb 3, 2001
    Really? Then I don't have to worry about much. Operating ship chain make game more tedious.
  16. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    It depends on the year.... I did not have 77 or 78 base trade in AD0001 (it took till the mid 600's), but definately expect it by AD1000 at the absolute latest.

    BTW, the absolute max number of trade arrows the Colossus can contribute directly is 21 (Size 20 city with all 21 trade-producing tiles).

    I just made a post on trade in this thread:


    Even if you have half the trade, due to a smaller city and/or lack of celebration/Colossus, you can still get an advance every other turn, all other things being equal (e.g., exact same deliveries and routes). Every other turn, with 0% science, in Fundy is still very very good. :) :)

    Yes! Yes! Map swapping is ver important to early/mid game trade.... it lets you spot the best routes.
  17. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    Well, I know you are incorrect about that. The ship chain is not disallowed, for sure. Where did you get that info, BTW?

    About ship chains.... If you send out a ship of stuff each turn, once it starts arriving, like 8 turns town the road for a distant destination, you will still have a steady chain of ships coming in. The key is to send out a loaded ship each turn. Your first routes take a long time to set up, as it takes a while for the ships (esp Triremes/caravels with no LH/ME) to get there.

    As a final note on Ship Chains vs. Chain of Ships... it takes the same number of ships, and the same amount of resources to move the cargo. The difference is the lag, if you are unable to provide a shipload of cargo on a turn. That gap won't show up for several turns. Initial ship chains are identical to chain of ships in initial startup time, too.

    Be that as it may, ship chaining is perfectly acceptable (moving cargo from ship to ship in mid ocean) in GOTMs. Unless a rules change has occurred that has not been posted ;).
  18. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

    Feb 3, 2001
    Yes, I use to like Colossus, because I use to play
    SSC with several supporting cities a lot. But GOTM changed me a lot. Because to have good score in GOTM, you need a lot of cities. :( Therefore Pyramid become the 1st choice of wonder. I didn't plan to use international trading at the beginning , so GL become the next wonder I was heading for. Now I know you are right, with MP, GL is pretty much useless. Although I did get math, BB, and several other science from it. Next I have to make choice between HG, LH, MP. Colossus even was not in my list. And I got only MP. Other civs built HG, LH, and Colossus at the same time. If I play a same game again, I may build colossus and LH first, then pyramid/MP.

    For the trading thing, I'll do it anyway. Although the bonus will be much less than yours. Do plain research under fundy is a real pain. :)
  19. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    PS, I did a seach for Ship Chain, and there is no disallowment posted anywhere that shows up.

    Further, The Civ 3 GOTM has had a recent poll on it, and it got an 80% approval rating from the players.


    Here is non GOTM discussion from last year:


    Here is an example from last August (non-GOTM use):


    Here is one of my posts in a trade thread, about 2 weeks after joining CFC over a year ago:


    In the Civ 2 GOTM, here is some routine discussion that entions ship chains (the earliest date that the search turned up):


    So before you jump in and say something's disallowed, it's best to cite the source (so we can all see it for sure).... that's because incorrect posts like the 2 you made in this thread could tend to mislead the newer folks if you're incorrect ;).

    So just to clarify for everyone, ship chaining is allowed, and in fact, is not even frowned upon by the vast majority of players. There is nothing at all even "shady" about it to the vast majority of players..... use it if ya'll don't mind the micromanagement ;).
  20. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    OK, here is some more stuff about ship chaining:


    As you can see, even last month, the very first post by Smash talked about using 5 ships to chain for trade.

    You might have misunderstood the discussion arising from the FCT, and referring to Duke's thread asking what was allowed last year:


    Of the 10 questions he put forth, only #1, #4, and #10 are currently disallowed GOTMs:

    #1 was allowed in GOTMs for the first year, and was disallowed several months ago (maybe about January).

    The other 7, including ship chaining (#9), are allowed, and have never been considered unacceptable, and in fact are merely techiques. Most take micromanagement to perform, and are not even sonsidered shady by most Civ 2 players. The list arises from Duke of Marlbroough's original list of 10 questions last year. They are allowed in GOTMs. They have never been disallowed, either.


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