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#18 Spoiler discussion

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by golem, Jul 6, 2002.

  1. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    Finally found that last pesky village in 1889. That not bad for me. I usually build ships.

    J
     
  2. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

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    In order to clarify and centralize just what is allowed and what is not allowed in GOTMs, I've started a specific thread here:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=376390#post376390


    This will make the info and discussion easily locatable by all GOTMers, and reduce confusion. Any GOTM player is encouraged to make input, esp. if you think a change in GOTM rules should be addressed :).
     
  3. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

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    Played another session last night. Got Navagation and Gunpowder. The Gunpowder was mainly due to trade bonus. 200+ gold each deliver. Dye and copper seems to be the most popular demanding ones in my game. Beads and salt are rare. A long list of cities demanding silk but all my cities. Wine seems to be good.
    Lost 2 cities to barbarians. :( It was pretty much a mistake. I have dip nearby, but I bribed a ship first, then it can't move :( Next turn the city fall, and the ship and all unit at that square lost. :(
    On Greek side, they used a vet trireme to sink my one trireme and one caravel! Togather I lost a dip on ship. That was the darkest session on military wise. Good thing is I bribe one of the city back from barbarian, and bribe a STWA city from Greek.
    I sawped map with Sioux, and found out they are on a small island, with 4/5 pityful cities.
    The best trade partner city seems to be Paris, but I need to go arround a long way to get there.Proposing to build 2 canals to take the short cut by pass a in-land lake on Rome side.
    That seems to be a long journey before I can finish. :( End game is really tedious. Should I just let other cities autobuild?
     
  4. Kev

    Kev Hired Goon

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    Looks like some interesting games! Looking forward to seeing some of them.

    I just finished myself. I played an OCC game. How, you ask? Well, as kind of a goof I went forward playing an OCC game BY CONQUERING. Yup. Had to make sure that every city I took was size one and without city walls so I would remain "pure" in my game with just one city only.

    It was a blast. Actually, I didn't really think I was going to be able to do it, but I took it seriously and thought out my strategy over a great deal of time. I didn't really start a log until about 475 BC, but I'll post what I have and my basic strategies in the next day or so. It's late now and I am a bit frazzled.

    Thanks to Smash for providing a very cool game to play!
     
  5. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

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    I tried some OCC conquer games last year, without the Gov't restrictions of course, and I found Spies were key (hordes come in via RR & poison the cities down to size 1, then conquer/destroy to avoid ever possessing a 2nd city. I would usually split at least one civ per game, too.... did you split any civs? Maybe not, as the AI was stuck in Despotism & usually dirt poor.

    Looking forward to your account!
     
  6. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

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    This is only my pesonal opinion on autobuild: I will never use it. Ever. If I feel I have to use it, I won't finish a game. Why? Because I rarely rarely build something from scratch to completion... and rarely do two cities need the same build sequence, esp. because of the caravan/freight supply in it.

    I just scroll rapidly through all city screens at warp speed at the end of each turn. Sometimes, I just scan the city advisor instead.
     
  7. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    I have learned alot from these GOTM games, mostly from Starlifter. For example I did not know that...
    A : You could see all cities with wonders
    B : If you give the AI enough techs they will trade you maps

    If I had known this b4 I finished the game I probably would've finished 50 years earlier because my forces wouldn't have had to comb the globe as I did. Its good I know now though. I was wondering if there are any other game "goodies" that are legal that I can use to get an advantage. BTW, I already figured out about the "putting everyone on the water squares before you cash in a caravan trick".

    One more thing, could you give me a breakdown (in layman's terms) of how the GOTM score is calculated, I get the jist of it but I'm not sure I fully understand the math.

    Thanks,
    Narz :king:
     
  8. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

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    Then how do you speed up the game and get a high score at same time? I always think you can't get the two at same time. In my current game, each turn is very long now, due to many exploring units, cargo, settlers, etc.
     
  9. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

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    by Narz:
    A high GOTM score is a combination of Civ2 score (without any early finish flat bonus), multiplied by a formula (the 50^PNP) that rewards speed of finish.

    The 50^PNP means you must balance how quick you finish with how large your empire should be (many citizens increase the Civ 2 score). It also means that you don't need to play a "Hall of Fame Game" (e.g., a 15,000+ score in AD2020) to get a good GOTM score. In fact, delaying your finish to 2020 may make you have a high Civ2 score, but a low 50^PNP multiplier.... which means you probably won't have a really high GOTM score.

    Download the Excel file & try plugging in your game score and game year about AD 500 and watch what your GOTM score is doing... if you play a full game to 2020, you'll probably notice that the GOTM score "peaks" somewhere along the way. That peak is the "ideal" time to finish your particular game.

    Many times, the end game can become tedious (esp. if launching a SS), and it is best just to "end" it, even if the GOTM score is increasing (e.g., you are "ahead of the 50^PNP curve"). That was the case in both my last GOTMs, btw.


    Last year, in the June to October time frame, there was a lot discussion in the Spoiler threads. Spoiler threads are always a good place for info. So is the link in my Signature block . And the CFC Search function is great for pulling up things like trade, combat, key civs, etc. etc.

    I tend to post a lot of stuff... for instance in this Set Fundy game, I even started a separate thread with thoughts ahead of time about strategy changes to consider. Remember, every game is different... GOTMs are different than HOF games, for instance: HOF games do not have a time element (50^PNP). There are many strategies, but using Democracy and WLTP growth is one that works in almost all games (a fast finish can also give a high GOTM score even though the base Civ 2 score is low).

    But the bottom line is that hopefully, people have a good time, discuss their game (whether it turned out good, bad, or indifferent).
     
  10. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

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    by Sekong:
    About score, there are limits to what one can do simultaneously. In a Democracy, you can fight a massive war and grow massively, due to WLTP days. Then instant growth of Republics & Democracies is the key in most GOTMs (but not GOTM 18)... but it takes effort, planning, rehoming of military units, and careful watch of improvements to extract the most out of Democracies.

    Yes, it is turning out that this is one of the longest, if not the longest, GOTM game (timewise) that I recall playing. I speed up turns by making a "system" of city naming and forcing my units to have discipline (LOL, crack that whip...). For instance, prior to Airports, all trade will centralize to my core empire, and be stacked into piles of the same cargo (e.g., piles of Coal, Silk, Silver, hides, etc. etc.). When I need a given cargo to get gold./science, I go to the pile, take a freight, and either rehome it or deliver it to my SGC.

    After Radio, things speed up a lot, because every single city gets an airport, and Freight & units simple fly from one spot to their final destination. Ships are slow (but necessary before Radio); Airports are fast (and give trade bonuses).

    My navy speeds things up, by sleeping in mid-ocean in positions to cover maximum ocean and shoreline for AI & Barbarians. When the AI is under control, I don't move my navy around the board anymore.


    There are two sure fire ways to avoid end-game 30+ minutes per turn: finish early (early conquer), and OCC. We had some other ideas of game variations last fall (esp. noughmaster, as I recall), but in the end, the playstyle is up to each participant & "real time" often limits what you'd actually "like" to do. :(

    :)
     
  11. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

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    Wonderful! All nice ideas! Cargo piling, Yeah, I'll do that. Sleeping ships? sure after I get steam Engine, my 4/4/7 Ironclad will be sent out. Airport using a real nice idea to speed up things, but it's far from me now. I guess I'll use RR + GOTO to speed things up.

    I have never do OCC yet, just because I'm a big fan of huthunter, and don't like to starve my people out. But maybe I'll try it once, who knows.
    If I had LH earlier, I may have tried a earl conquest.

     
  12. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

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    I forgot to specifically mention that... it starts with caravans and regular roads, in the BC era. I send the caravans on the way with the GOTO, and it may take 4 or 5 or 6 turns for a caravan to plod along the twisting roads to get to the destination. In this GOTM, I have some Freight slogging it out, turn after turn, from the old Persian empire (across those mountains), since that area is too darned remote even for one of my ship chains. It is likely that I'll reach Radio before the freight arrives at a port city, and makes its way to my SCG.

    Once you get RR, then things move faster.... the backbone of the road system gets upgraded to RR, and ferry ships instead of chain ships move cargo between landmasses.

    Then, comes Airport, and most ferry ships and almost all chain ships are out of work, unless an island needs settling somewhere.



    In a competitive SP, non-GOTM game, those ships are part of the invasion fleet. GOTM games get the AI creamed early because the AI gets no "extra" advantages, like 3 or 4 or 5 settlers (I give the AI stuff to help it out, so we can get to modern combat, which is my favorite, but I've never had it in a GOTM :) ).

    Sorry, I don't understand what starving you people out has to do with OCC (OCC = One City Challenge). :confused:
     
  13. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

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    Advanced tribe, which you suppose to remove if you are playing OCC. :(
     
  14. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

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    Ahhhhh....... I see. Well, there is a special rule in OCC for huts:

    1. Before you enter a hut, save the game.
    2. Enter the hut.
    3. If the hut is an advanced tribe, then immediately reload, and try again. Continue until the very first result that gives anything except and advanced tribe.


    This is the only case in standard gameplay where the game-specific rules not only allow a reload, but require it.

    In OCC, you are never allowed to possess a 2nd city, even for a moment. You can have only one at all times :).


    Here are the guidelines and rules most people play a standard OCC game by:

    http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/occ.htm

    It's often called the "Paulicy", after the name of the author.



    I just downloaded the applicable paragraph from the Paulicy:

    :)
     
  15. Kev

    Kev Hired Goon

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    True, as usual starlifter, regarding the OCC advanced tribes. I have to say that with so many huts that I dealt with in this game as OCC, there were times that I thought the game would NEVER give me something other than an advanced tribe. Like 15 times in a row I kept getting Osaka!

    Anyway, I'll post my account later on tonight or tomorrow. As you mention, starlifter, I originally thought about going for spies and then poisioning/destroying walls then removing a single defender(rinse/repeat). The unfortunate reality that I knew I was facing was that the technology would just not progress quickly enough for me to get to espionage and then lay waste to the world that remained at the time. It was a double-edged sword: if I eliminated some civs, the tech progress would be even slower, but if I let them all live there would be too many cities to destroy before 2020. I realize that spies have no support cost and I could have had hundreds, but recall that they'd be sent back to my home city after each success (or captured), so the spy delivery situation would have had to have been flawless.

    The slow-tech reaity became even more the case seeing as the other civilizations were mired in their own despotisms.

    I actually finished the game as the only civ to even get to gunpowder - and that even very late in the game. Nobody got to Navigation, Sanitation, Railroad, or a host of other techs. Only one got Feudalism (which I stole right after) and that, too, was near the end of the game. With one city, there were just not enough caravans that I could build to produce the tech I wanted/needed.

    I had a few lucky breaks in the beginning, or else I'm not sure if I would have pulled it off.
     
  16. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

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    Thanks for the paulicy, starlift! I did not know that rule before.
    And for Kev, thanks for sharing the interesting info. I believe the game have a tendency to give you what you lack when you open a hut. If you don't have enough city, then it's a tribe, not enough settler then a nomid, etc. Your story just prove my suspect. 15 times a roll! The probabilty of this is near zero, if all possible output are plain random.
     
  17. Kev

    Kev Hired Goon

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    To be honest, 15 times may be a bit of an exaggeration, but probably not too far off.

    You know, now that it's been mentioned, I NEVER got a wandering nomad. I must have popped like 50 huts. I bribed a settler toward the end of the game to help put up some fortresses and roads in the Persian theater, but NEVER one from a hut.

    Come to think of it, in GOTM 16 I played an OCC and also NEVER received a wandering nomad. What's up with that???
     
  18. sekong

    sekong Net Surfer

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    I guess the ratio between settlers/cities matters. my ratios is arround 1/2. I have got nearly a handful of nomads so far. (till AD1220)
     
  19. Marlos

    Marlos Christian Soldier

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    Kev, I can tell you that I have found 2 wandering nomads in GOTM18. One, I remember distinctly, was on the northern polar ice cap. Would the game somehow adjust for your playing it as OCC? I doubt that it is that smart.

    Sekong, I wish that I could play with a 1:2 ratio sometimes. I am too expansionist, my ratio is generally 1:1. If would just quit expanding, I could probably have finished GOTM18 already! :rolleyes:

    I've never played OCC. Perhaps I will try it sometime.
     
  20. Kev

    Kev Hired Goon

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    Well, I've played other OCC games in the past where I have received nomads, so I don't think that the game was out to get me or anything. It was just very curious.

    I have seen in the past where the game will only give me one nomad on a certain continent. If I used the nomad then to build a city, then the chances seemed to be better that I could get another on that same continent.

    In 'normal' games, I'm like you, Marlos. I expand like a maniac and find that I have too few settlers/engineers around to complete many tasks.

    One final bit of curiousness regarding my game was the score I received. I was given the score of like 1945 or somewhere near that, a 232% or so and was given the title of "magnificent". Seems awful high for having one city which was only size 12.
     

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