1939

[Tigranes]

I used to get a turn almost every evening, but lately things slowed down

 

[academia]

I used to get a turn almost every evening, but lately things slowed down

sorry, i´ve been busy these last weeks.

turn report:
continuing with something that the finest communists minds call "defensive strategy"... let´s see what happens

 

[Tigranes]

sorry, i´ve been busy these last weeks.

turn report:
continuing with something that the finest communists minds call "defensive strategy"... let´s see what happens

I really question how leaving empty the 2 last cities I need for victory could be a wise strategy

 

[academia]

edited

 

[academia]

I really question how leaving empty the 2 last cities I need for victory could be a wise strategy

well, i was applying "real life" tactics, as "retreat and regroup". i couldnt care less about the "victory conditions", you know. i´m having my ass kicked here.
moreover, i´ve learned the hard way that fortifying cities in the first line of defense is worthless, that´s why i´m, pulling back.

arent you going to win anyway? just enjoy the conquest of russia.

 

[Tigranes]

Well, none of your cities are going to be first line anymore, and all of them are your real RUssian cities from now on, not those ex-Polish. Minsk was protected by 1 guy but it took me 3 units to capture it finally. Historically Nazies marched all the way to Moscow, but they had alot of trouble on the way and could not break Man of Steel's resolution to fight until the last drop of blood!
Game will just stop after I get Leningrad and Sevastopol. If that's what you want -- you can just surrender you know, offering those two cities as a capitulation gifts!

 

[academia]

Game will just stop after I get Leningrad and Sevastopol. If that's what you want -- you can just surrender you know, offering those two cities as a capitulation gifts!

sevastopol could have been more defensible, as there are russian culture tiles surrounding it, but leningrad? with your complete sea superiority, you could put together an amphibious + air assault, so... from an amphibious point of view, leningrad is a first line city.

well, on second thoughts, you can set an amphibious assault on sevastopol too... right? not sure if you have the units to make that happen.

 

[academia]

Game will just stop after I get Leningrad and Sevastopol. If that's what you want -- you can just surrender you know, offering those two cities as a capitulation gifts!

as you wish... i mean, i dont see the point of keep on playing anymore... right? but i dont wanna spoil your fun either, hehe.
unless kiwitt has something else to say, from my point of view it´s pretty obvious that you´ve won the scenario.
i think it´s up to you

 

[Tigranes]

This was my spies' report on Soviet military before I have declared on you. I am pretty sure one can resist longer with this kind of force.

Excluding Armor and quality -- Soviet numbers are superior to German's, I am not even sure how much Soviets can draft actually. This game had a steady progress and I feel sad to finish it so fast, after so many long term strategic investments in my Germany.

I offer to swap our civs with academia. I will become Soviets 1 turn before I declared on him as Germany, and academia will continue as Germany, if everyone agrees.

 

[kiwitt]

I actually think we can re-start this scenario with a few additional house rules.

1: All nations can only declare war or take major actions on the Historical Dates:

a) Germany on Poland in Week 1 September 1939
b) Russia on Poland in Week 2 September 1939
c) Russia on Finland in Week 1 December 1939 - i.e. The Winter War
d) Germany on Denmark/Norway in Week 1 April 1940
e) Germany on Holland/Belgium in Week 1 May 1940
(Related sub-rules)
- Germany can not invade France until Holland and Belgium are defeated - i.e. the Battle of France
- Germany can not invade Britain until all planes are destroyed - i.e. the Battle of Britain
- France can not attack Germany until 1 May 1940
f) Italy on France in Week 1 June 1940
(Related sub-rules)
- Britain can not invade France/Germany until Week 1 August 1942 - i.e. Dieppe Landings
- Britain can not invade Italy until all Italian forces and Germany forces are removed from the North Africa
i) Italy on Greece Week 4 October 1940
h) Germany on Yugoslavia in Week 1 April 1941
(Related sub-rules)
- Germany can not declare war on Russia until Yugoslavia and Greece defeated
- Britain can not land forces on Greece until Week 1 April 1941
- Germany can not land forces in North Africa until Week 2 February 1941 - i.e. Afrika Corps
i) Germany on Russia in Week 3 June 1941
(Related sub-rules)
- Russia can not declare war on Germany until Week 2 June 1941
j) Germany and Italy on the United States in Week 2 December 1941

This will allow the first few turns September 1939 to December 1941 to follow historical dates, after which it is then a free-for-all. While it may seem boring, it does allow people like me who prefer to play historically more enjoyment. In addition, the the length of time between actions will allow forces to be suitably built up making it much more of a challenge to all players.

In addition, I believe France should be controlled by the Russian player, which would avoid the following;
1) Russia getting bored in the first few years
2) Britain having to much control over France if Britain player them
3) France AI taking actions which are not historical

We have learnt quite a bit from the first few turns in this game to understand what works and what doesn't, as I wish I played more of this as single-player but with my RL commitments I could not.

I am happy to declare Tigranes the winner of this scenario.
1) He has taken Alexandria
2) He has defeated the British Navy and Air Force
3) He has conquered most of Europe
4) He has successfully surprise attacked Russia, leaving it mortally wounded

 

[academia]

Tigranes:

This was my spies' report on Soviet military before I have declared on you. I am pretty sure one can resist longer with this kind of force.

Excluding Armor and quality -- Soviet numbers are superior to German's, I am not even sure how much Soviets can draft actually. This game had a steady progress and I feel sad to finish it so fast, after so many long term strategic investments in my Germany.

i forgot i could draft units up till 2 turns ago
my performance in this scenario was complete crap. no need on keep on going, hehe.
from my point of view, it´s extremely obvious that i started playing this game with a civ2-oriented mind, while i need to master and understand all the different aspects of civ4.

I offer to swap our civs with academia. I will become Soviets 1 turn before I declared on him as Germany, and academia will continue as Germany, if everyone agrees.

sorry, but i decline you offer.
you are the victor here.

 

[academia]

regarding kiwitt´s proposals:

1: All nations can only declare war or take major actions on the Historical Dates:

i really dont like that as i feel it will impose too many restrictions on players ideas/strategies/liberties.
i strongly prefer tigranes "city-conquering" restrictions/guidelines.

In addition, I believe France should be controlled by the Russian player, which would avoid the following;

no comments on that...
but i guess that taking into account that you used UK-France in this game, you´d have better insight on this than me.

 

[Tigranes]

1. I am happy to be crowned as victor and end this game

2. I really love this scenario and would feel excited to start this again. I can be UK this time and kiwitt can be Axis. academia wants to stay as Russia.

3. Me and kiwitt probably should talk more about what he does not like in current house rules. I have a feeling he thinks they favor Germany, which I am ready to refute step by step. Current house rules in their essence follow kiwitts wishes except that they are less deterministic and allow for different strategies and variations. I spent a lot of time designing them, I played and technically created 4 different winning test games for every single major civ (except USA). So I am ready to explain and defend my choices. I just need specific criticism.

4. There is a strong objection in making France a human power. Basically, any civ that was a victim of Blitz cannot be human. Axis are not that strong. AI France represents Phony War situation remarkably well. In real life French behaved almost exactly like our AI plays -- not very smart, not very creative, no major attack on Germany, while Nazies were busy in Polland. Before Moscow Nazies were unstoppable, this is very remarkable fact.

To summarize, this game is over, I want to start the new one soon, we need serious discussion and consensus before I change any rules.

 

[kiwitt]

Agreed: Lets refine the rules that we can all agree on.

 

[Tigranes]

Well, go ahead please. You can copy paste a particular rule from the page 1 you are not sure about, and we can take it from there. All I ask is to be specific, which rule, what exactly annoys you, etc...

 

[academia]

to be honest, i dont have any complaints on the house rules.
the only thing that... dont wanna say "bothers me" either, but that i dont care much is the "ideological victory".
the idea of winning by conquering this and that city, sound more like panzer general to me (have you guys played it?) than civilization.
i prefer the idea on keeping on playing until you destroy the enemy or he surrenders, rather than "if i take these 5 cities, it´s over", something that doesnt sound very realistic to me.

but as i said before, if you guys wanna keep it, np. i don´t consider it a deal breaker.

 

[Tigranes]

I see your concern. The reason I went by objective cities is to make them very important and prompt savage battles around those cities. Think about Stalingrad on the map. Why would one want to get to the edge of the map for that prize? Nothing special. But if Germans took Warsaw, Paris, Oslo, Kiev, and Sevastopol (very likely scenario) -- Soviets cannot stop them by defending Moscow and Leningrad only. Game could become a boring battle of attrition, if we only focus on capitals. Being objective city -- Stalingrad might influence 'historic' Nazi attack directions and Soviet defense strategy. I just wanted to make historic choices more likely without telling German what to do exactly.

Surrender is a little too subjective term. For example, in Earth 2010 game kiwitt lost all his cities but could prolong the game technically, refusing to surrender and waiting for natural victory to kick in. Of course that did not last very long, but imagine that it could be different kind of guy When one designs house rule he has to think about any possible personality in player that may end up being your opponent.

 

[academia]

Surrender is a little too subjective term. For example, in Earth 2010 game kiwitt lost all his cities but could prolong the game technically, refusing to surrender and waiting for natural victory to kick in. Of course that did not last very long, but imagine that it could be different kind of guy When one designs house rule he has to think about any possible personality in player that may end up being your opponent.

sorry, i didnt understand that... "natural victory"?

 

[Tigranes]

Natural I mean default victories, like domination or conquest, or when all the other human players' civs are dead. In 1939 mod adaptation I have created some "government in exile" -- little invisible indestructible spies that insure that Benelux will be alive even if their last city and last visible unit is destroyed (Require complete kill option is enabled).

 

[kiwitt]

1. No gifting units. Period.

1: Only Armour and Destroyers may be gifted. - This represents lend-lease and transfer to allies of obsolete equipment.

2. No airlifts, except for units representing a single person, e.g. Great General...

Exception: 5 Infantry Units and 1 Machine Gun Unit from Canada to the Egypt, representing the ANZAC armies

3. Cities cannot be gifted except only when liberated to the original Sep 1939 owner (this includes Canadian cities, which can be returned to Canada by human British player).

Agreed

4. No permanent alliance between human players (includes Italy with Germany).

Agreed

5. Italy goes AI if Rome is lost to any civ. Human Germany and human Italy cannot fight each other.

Agreed

6. Once war is declared no peace deal can be accepted/proposed until the fall of "belligerent" capital.

Agreed

7. Before 1941 Germany and/or Italy can declare on USSR only after fall of Paris, while USSR can declare on Germany and/or Italy only after fall of Helsinki

7. Before 1941 Germany and/or Italy can declare on USSR only after fall of Paris and London, while USSR can declare on Germany and/or Italy only after fall of Helsinki

8. Before 1945 UK and USSR can declare on each other only after the fall of Berlin.

Agreed

9. Before 1940 UK can declare on Italy only if Italy is at war with someone.

Agreed

10. Before 1940 Italy can declare on UK and France only after fall of Paris.

Agreed

11. Human players cannot switch from their ideology (religion) and original Politics Civic (Fascist, Right Wing, Communist).

Agreed

12. No land crossing of Benelux, Spain and Turkey by any human player during OBs with those civs, while those countries stay neutral (not involved in any wars).

Agreed

13. If the USA has not joined the side of the Allies by the end of 1941 and declared war, Germany declares war of the USA on Week 1 of December 1941. So does human Italy.

Agreed

Also in the scenario France should be setup as a Permanent Ally with the UK.