2 negative thoughts from a BtS fan

[DrewBledsoe]

I agree that Diplomacy has gone down the hill with BTS.

Maybe it's just me but I like the AI's to behave more like actual Civilizations than players trying to win a game.

This being said I have no problems with certain Warmongers attacking even at pleased of friendly. But it should fit their personality, meaning Genghis should by all means.

What makes Diplomacy IMO even worse is that's it not at all tied in with Espionage. One of the great achievements of Civ 4 versus prior versions was that every element of the game affected diplomacy : relations, borders, power, past behaviour.

That's lost now. Vassals can poison your cities, as will long-time allies that are friendly with you. Imagine the UK poisoning the water supplies of New York.

Just well said.....

 

[Ashbery76]

What makes Diplomacy IMO even worse is that's it not at all tied in with Espionage.

You will get -1 if caught spying by the A.I in relations.

 

[Ammar]

You will get -1 if caught spying by the A.I in relations.

I was more referring to my expression that the AI does not seem to consider it's relations to you when performing Espionage. Vassals and Allies poisoning your cities seems wrong to me.

 

[Ashbery76]

I was more referring to my expression that the AI does not seem to consider it's relations to you when performing Espionage. Vassals and Allies poisoning your cities seems wrong to me.

I agree and I bet future patches with sort this out.

 

[Pitboss]

I was more referring to my expression that the AI does not seem to consider it's relations to you when performing Espionage. Vassals and Allies poisoning your cities seems wrong to me.

Couldn't agree more. The vassals really should act like it. But it seems like they're just remaining like all other AI civs but with some restrictions.
Which is obviously not the case. Their should also be a difference between a vassal by choice or a vassal by capitulation.

 

[Ammar]

You will get -1 if caught spying by the A.I in relations.

BTW I have absolutely no problem with an Friendly Civ trying to steal some techs from you. That's sort of understandable. But they should commit outright terrorism against you.

 

[PieceOfMind]

BTW I have absolutely no problem with an Friendly Civ trying to steal some techs from you. That's sort of understandable. But they should commit outright terrorism against you.

In one of my games I managed to befriend Asoka and keep a Defensive Pact with him long enough to become a permanent ally. He must have had roughly +10 relations with me (friendly). Anyway, I was regularly encountering foreign spies in my land because I kept spies idle in my own cities. On the turn when we became allies, it was amusing to see three of his spies wander away from my cities and back into his territory again, like dogs with their tails bewteen their legs! (I could now see his spies because I was his ally.)

Surely a civ shouldn't feel a need to sabotage someone it has a defensive pact with? ... But I guess it's more human like...

 

[Amagius]

Surely a civ shouldn't feel a need to sabotage someone it has a defensive pact with? ... But I guess it's more human like...

I was at a seminar recently where an ex-CIA agent was giving a speech and it opened my eyes to the amount of espionage that truly goes on. Nearly every major power country [United States, Frances, England, Germany, Russia, China] has spies in all the other countries.

Now as to whether they are sabotaging or dismantling anything, not all countries do it, but some did and still do.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

In one of my games I managed to befriend Asoka and keep a Defensive Pact with him long enough to become a permanent ally. He must have had roughly +10 relations with me (friendly). Anyway, I was regularly encountering foreign spies in my land because I kept spies idle in my own cities. On the turn when we became allies, it was amusing to see three of his spies wander away from my cities and back into his territory again, like dogs with their tails bewteen their legs! (I could now see his spies because I was his ally.)

Surely a civ shouldn't feel a need to sabotage someone it has a defensive pact with? ... But I guess it's more human like...

But the point is, there is passive espionage, which allows you to see anyone elses cities as if they were yours. In Warlords, you needed to keep spies in even friendly lands, just to keep an eye on what they were building (wonders etc competition). Now, after a certain amount of time, you can see what everyone is building, what buildings they have, without ever having an actual spy enter their lands. Therefore, the only reason for another civ to have spy units in anothers territory is to cause trouble (or possibly they were just passing through)...

 

[Amagius]

But the point is, there is passive espionage, which allows you to see anyone elses cities as if they were yours. In Warlords, you needed to keep spies in even friendly lands, just to keep an eye on what they were building (wonders etc competition). Now, after a certain amount of time, you can see what everyone is building, what buildings they have, without ever having an actual spy enter their lands. Therefore, the only reason for another civ to have spy units in anothers territory is to cause trouble (or possibly they were just passing through)...

The only time your passive espionage will allow you to see the research or innards of a city is if you are directly focusing on that one civilization. Otherwise, spies serve the purpose of spying without necessarily having to devote large amounts of EPs.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well I would say that Destructive Espionage should be something a Friendly AI avoids doing (especially if there are better Targets)

Things like spreading Culture or stealing tech your 'Friends' should do

Vassals.. at least the Capitulated ones who start out hating you should do ALL types of Espionage against you.
However
1. You need to get a bonus (+50% ? +100%?) for espionage against them (Increase in their cost)
AND/OR
2. If caught and identified, that should be a pretext for war (like denying tribute)

 

[LightSpectra]

In civ, there can only be one winner, and the AI will win at your expense.

But they'll still vote for you for UN victory, right?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^Which is why UN/AP Victory needs to be changed, so that it actually works

If you vote for the Winner of a Diplomatic Victory, you should be counted as winning too. (like in a Permanent Alliance).. maybe winning with a lower score.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

The only time your passive espionage will allow you to see the research or innards of a city is if you are directly focusing on that one civilization. Otherwise, spies serve the purpose of spying without necessarily having to devote large amounts of EPs.

Er no. It really doesnt need many spy pts to be able to see the insides of another civs cities. Its very easy to manouever the various weightings around, so that once you have enough against one you can shift to another, and so on. This combined with the natural fact of you having met some civs earlier than others, makes it quite possible after a time, to completely put no spy pts into "well researched civs" and still see exactly what they are doing.

Sorry I didn't really quantify this, yes you are right that early in the game, you need spies, but later on passive intel will provide all you need was my point.

 

[BlackJAC]

Irl how does a spy manage to spread culture? This one is lost on me.

 

[aelf]

On the topic of Pleased AI attacking you out of the blue, I think this should be the way!!! However, I propose that the text 'Pleased' or 'Friendly' in the game be replaced with 'Ignore this text because it might not matter anyway. Be a man!'.

And, oh, those who do not expect friends to attack them are noobs LOL!!!1!1

 

[DrewBledsoe]

On the topic of Pleased AI attacking you out of the blue, I think this should be the way!!! However, I propose that the text 'Pleased' or 'Friendly' in the game be replaced with 'Ignore this text because it might not matter anyway. Be a man!'.

And, oh, those who do not expect friends to attack them are noobs LOL!!!1!1

The bitterest sarcasm yet......ouch.

 

[aelf]

The bitterest sarcasm yet......ouch.

I'm just being a spokesman for some people here

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I'm just being a spokesman for some people here

Agreeing with you actually.....

 

[Ecofarm]

Pleased and Friendly are not MERELY indicators of war likeliness. They may not be any such thing. They do, however, indicate the likelyhood and cost of trades, open borders, etc. Just because an AI attacks at +10 does not mean that diplomacy was pointless. It means that diplomacy for the intention of preventing war was pointless; however, feel free to continue to enjoy the trade benefits that lead to that 'pleased/friendly' (apparently you did not utilize the bribery benefits).