• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

(2-NS) Add a Global Pool for Great Person Points

Status
Not open for further replies.

pineappledan

Deity
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
10,650
Location
Alberta, Canada
Problem:
The way the Great people are generated means that smaller cities have no way of ever generating a Great person, because the threshold for GPs contantly grows on empire whenever one is born in your major cities. Specialists in these cities never have the GPPs they generate go towards anything, and are totally wasted as a result, this means that specialists in peripheral cities only matter for the yields they give. In the case of Engineers, this means that they are competing directly with mines for value, and function only as limited mines with lower :c5production:yields and more food consumption. There's other specialist types like civil servants which have very limited specialist slots outside of a few core cities, so they can't ever contribute to Great Person generation.

The current system also doesn't make use of global GP rate modifiers in a meaningful way. Why have Gardens in non-core cities if they are never going to generate a great person? What is the point of the leaning tower's 10% to global GP rate, or policies with bonus GP rate in all cities if it only meaningfully affects 2-3 cities?

Solution:
Create a global empire pool for great person points in addition to the local per city pool. 1/3 of GPPs generated in a city are added to the global pool while the remaining 2/3 of GPPs stay in the city for each type of great person

Example:
City 1 generates 9 :c5greatperson:Great Engineer points per turn
6 :c5greatperson:GEP remain in the city​
3 :c5greatperson:GEP go to the global pool​
City 2 generates 6 :c5greatperson:Great Engineer points per turn
4 :c5greatperson:GEP remain in the city​
2 :c5greatperson:GEP go to the global pool​
In Total:
City 1 has an effective 11 :c5greatperson:Great Engineer points (6 local + (3+2) global)​
City 2 has an effective 9 :c5greatperson:Great Engineer points (4 local + (3+2) global)​
A new Great Engineer will be born when the combined local and global points add up to the threshold amount in any city, and both that city’s local pool, and the entire global pool, are emptied.​
Housecleaning:
- GPP points are tallied in order of city ID and will be born in the oldest city in the case of a tie. This proposal doesn't change anything about that.
- Instant GPPs from quest rewards etc. would be added to the local GPP pools unless otherwise specified. This proposal is only concerned with per-turn GPP generation and is not proposing to change any instant GPP sources.
- The UI displaying local and global pools would look something like this:
1667480148700.png
 
Last edited:
If the threshold is surpassed in multiple cities in a single turn, which city spawns the great person? Highest total after per-turn calculation? Oldest city?
 
Good! Your numbers could go to a counter-proposal.
No it’s not good. Instead of wasting peoples time with arbitrary numbers that have no basis in gameplay…we could have looked at an actual played game and see exactly how this kind of idea would have affected things, so we could decide what the best numbers to put forward would be rather than just stick a finger in the air and do it based on complete feel.

There shouldn’t be counterproposals here, we could have cut through a lot of that with a nice debate on discord with real numbers.
 
No it’s not good. Instead of wasting peoples time with arbitrary numbers that have no basis in gameplay…we could have looked at an actual played game and see exactly how this kind of idea would have affected things, so we could decide what the best numbers to put forward would be rather than just stick a finger in the air and do it based on complete feel.

There shouldn’t be counterproposals here, we could have cut through a lot of that with a nice debate on discord with real numbers.
Why not? This is exactly what counter-proposals are for. It's when you think you have a better version of the proposal (in this case better numbers).

Also, thanks to this proposal, the discussion happens also here. Not everyone is willing to go to discord with that. You're free to do that if you want, of course.
 
And here I was spending all this time creating a model for you so we could see how it played out and figure out the best numbers…but you just go and post it anyway. Sigh
Sorry, I can amend the OP with your recommendations. Although my intuition tells me that the main result from your analysis will be some amendment to GP thresholds, rather than to the ratio of local vs global.

The 1/3 number doesn't have "no basis in gameplay". Specialists make 3 GPPs per turn. So that's 1 to the global pool and 2 to the local pool. Maybe that's not the best balance to be struck, but it's a pretty reasonable starting point.
 
Last edited:
update:
A global pool for GPPs, separate from a local pool, would of course require some UI updates to communicate how big the global pool is. Luckily, there are already some UI elements that work along similar lines. We propose that the global pool appear as a semi-transparent section of the GP bar. When the combined local amount and the global amount fill the entire GP bar in 1 city, a new GP is born in that city and the global GPP pool is emptied for that GP type.
Spoiler courtesy of Balparmak :
1667409600164.png
 
I don't like the over complicate nature of having both global and local pool. I would suggest having only global pool, but in order to keep tall vs wide balance the amount of gpp needed for each global threshold is scale off number of cities.
Also having both local and global would buff wide empire big time.
 
Having both local and global pools feels like headache. Either try the global pool only or stick with the local pool. I personally like the idea of a global pool only.
 
I don't like idea of only global pool. What's going to happen with all other cities except capital? Where are going to appear all those GP?
 
1667480310133.png

edited OP with what having a combined local and global pool would look like in the UI. It would not be any more complicated to keep track of and would use the exact same UI elements.

A 100% global pool would put tall in the ground without considerable per-city scaling, which I am loathe to suggest. Civ 6 has a global GP pool and it means the game devolved into infinite city sprawl. There is a balance to be struck between preserving tall play and allowing at least some GP points from wide to not be wasted. 33% seems like a sensible starting point, because specialists make 3 points per turn, but it might be less than that.
 
Last edited:
Would this not be a massive buff to wide play?
Can you talk a bit more about how you see the wide vs tall distinction, or if you think it should only exist transiently based on the starting conditions ("thick", I think we once called it)
 
I don't like the over complicate nature of having both global and local pool. I would suggest having only global pool, but in order to keep tall vs wide balance the amount of gpp needed for each global threshold is scale off number of cities.
Also having both local and global would buff wide empire big time.
I'm currently pro-pdan but this could be a strong competitor if you or @CppMaster can came up with some numbers on how city to GPP scaling would work. We already have city scaling for culture & science, so there's a clear precedence. I understand the concern about balance, but balance can always be tweaked. That said, I think worries about the complexity and the UI are overblown, in the end both pdan's suggestion and a full global pool will "play" very similar to what we have now. "Play" as in the actions and mental work required by the player, which I'll try to explain with an example below. I'll even say that the pdan's hybrid version is even more similar to what we have now as your main method for checking GP progress (city view & top panel) remains the same, while a full global pool would be better off with a separate GP overview screen instead of cluttering the city view.
* I've entertained some "interesting" ideas about a full global pool, but somehow didn't think about a simple city scaling, wow :hammer2:

I don't like idea of only global pool. What's going to happen with all other cities except capital? Where are going to appear all those GP?

GPs will still spawn at whichever city reached the threshold, same as now. I was also hesitant at first but since the UI will clearly show both global and local GP progress, I don't think this will make managing GPPs harder as almost everything will play the same. An example:

Current VP rules
T0:

City A produces 9 Engineer points per turn. GE counter is at 0/72.
City B produces 6 Engineer points per turn. GE counter is at 0/72.

T8:
After 8 turns, City A reaches the threshold and will spawn a GE, while City B's counter is at 36/72. Due to scaling, the next GE will require 144 points. So at the start of turn 9,
City A: 0/144. 16 turns to the next GE.
City B: 36/144. 18 turns to the next GE.
So basically, City B will always try to catch-up to City A, never acquiring enough points to spawn a GE. Its Great Engineer Points go unused as a result.

Suggestion
T0:

City A produces 9 Engineer points per turn, 3 goes to the global pool, 6 remains in the city. The global pool receives 5 ( 3 from A, 2 from B) points per turn, so the net GPP in city A is 11 points. GE counter is at 0/72.
City B produces 6 Engineer points per turn, 2 goes to the global pool, 4 remains in the city. Net GPP in city B is 9 points, since it receives 3 GPP from the global pool (A's contribution). GE counter is at 0/72.
T7:
After 7 turns, the global pool accumulates 35 ( 5 x 7) points (3 from A, 2 from B). City A's counter is at 77 (35 global, 42 local (6 x 7))/72. City A reaches the threshold and will spawn a GE, while City B's counter is at 63 ( 35 global + 28 local (4 x 7) /72. Global pool is refreshed after GE spawns, and due to scaling the next GE will require 144 points. So at the start of turn 8,
City A: 5/144. (5 excess points kept from overflow.) 13 turns to the next GE.
City B: 28/144. B's counter was at 63 points, but 35 came from the global pool, which was reset for each city after the GE spawn. Note that B keeps its 28 local points since the GE wasn't spawned by B. 13 turns to the next GE.

Honestly, you won't need to bother yourself with the mental work above, as progress bars will represent everything you need to know. The important thing is that while City B's GPP production did not contribute to anything under current rules, with the global pool it helped the empire spawn a GE one turn earlier. A minor contribution, but it will add up when you have multiple cities, global rate modifiers and so on.
The suggestion does not require more mental work or diligence than the current rules. Currently you check your great person progress by looking at the top panel, going through the cities, maybe utilizing the drop-down great person overview. You'll do the exact same thing with the pdan's suggestion.
 
Last edited:
I understood how having both global and local pool work, and I don't have issue with the UI. The complex part I'm talking about is how can the player strategize it (and not simply doing the same thing as right now).

This is clearly a buff to wide since every extra specialist from any small cities would contribute to the global pool (even if they won't ever catch up, which is similar to current gameplay thought process - wide empire doesn't bank on getting any GP in small cities at all) so there must be another mechanic/scaling to keep the old balance (if that's the case just doing global pool with city scaling is already enough to solve all issues)

And in the event that some small cities could catch up (which is a lot more likely now), there would be a whole new gameplay thought process needed which encourage gamey behavior (like halting gpp in other city to allow GP to spawn in another city first - which isn't the case currently as we KNOW it's almost impossible so we ignore it and reduce micromanaging).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom