(2-WD) Early Naval Unit rework

[Tekamthi]

move the trireme back to Philosophy

why philosophy, and not engineering? seems more appropriate, while remaining on same tech level in tree

 

[pineappledan]

Philosophy is the only appropriate tech because it's the only tech in the 2nd tier of Classical that both:

• requires Fishing/Sailing (the galley unlock. The only early classical tech that requires fishing is sailing, so they are in a straight line with each other)
• is a prerequisite to Compass (Caravel unlock)

If you put the Trireme on any other tech it either won't require Galleys or Caravels won't require Triremes.

 

[Tekamthi]

Philosophy is the only appropriate tech because it's the only tech in the 2nd tier of Classical that both:

• requires Fishing/Sailing (the galley unlock. The only early classical tech that requires fishing is sailing, so they are in a straight line with each other)
• is a prerequisite to Compass (Caravel unlock)

If you put the Trireme on any other tech it either won't require Galleys or Caravels won't require Triremes.

couldn't we just do a little lua trickery to make trireme unlock at engineering in tech tree, but also require sailing? Anyway explanation makes sense, just don't like the level of gamey abstraction as a philosophy unlock

 

[Rekk]

couldn't we just do a little lua trickery to make trireme unlock at engineering in tech tree, but also require sailing?

no.

 

[Tekamthi]

no.

lol is that "no we can't" or "no we don't want to"? GameEvents.CityCanTrain() would make it technically possible, unless i'm overlooking/underthinking something here.

 

[pineappledan]

We don't use lua tricks in base VP, and it's not necessary because we can just put it on philosophy.

 

[Tekamthi]

We don't use lua tricks in base VP, and it's not necessary because we can just put it on philosophy.

fair, but presumably whatever can be cooked up in lua can be baked in under the hood, no? Anyway I think I'm leaning away from this one, as proposed.. on the fence, maybe.

Getting some resource tie-ins to naval, better thematic alignment, some role (if lesser) for an early ranged naval unit... any of these could sway me

 

[Jhang]

As it turned out, Plato's Republic was really about how to get 50 men to all pull their oars at the same time.

Well, it's a little more layered than that.

At least three of them in fact.

 

[Tekamthi]

yup. It's a very handsome little ship in game. I use it in my phoenicia mod, currently.

how do you feel about counter-proposal that incorporates this model? By all means, I'd understand if you'd rather reserve its VP usage for your mod -- there is a real dearth of early naval models though

 

[pineappledan]

I already use that bireme model in 2 different places so I wouldn’t be jazzed about it getting snapped up unless I really like the proposal in question.

Another compromise could just be to change the Dromon’s attack animation. Having it spit Greek fire is too specifically Byzantine, but the boat model itself is fairly basic.

 

[Tekamthi]

no prob -- one day, maybe, i'll figure out how to convert some of the models from other versions

 

[Tekamthi]

@Rekk strikes me a change that significant might be better off in modmod form, at least initially. I like the concept as an early ENW style mod, perhaps, but this will take a lot of tweaking to perfect

 

[cidk2000]

slightly off topic id like a sea explorer that gains xp from exploration trireme can only explore coastal tiles so it wouldnt be effective would a caravel gain xp i think it may be too late or overkill with the scout just having that

 

[CrazyG]

If this goes through, I'd rather see Carthage have a UU at fishing than at philosophy (I suspect whatever units are here will see very little usage).

Also I don't know if this would work, but you could maybe just make the work boat also a combat unit (which still consumes itself to build something)

 

[Jhang]

Or perhaps even ships of a certain class being able to create fishing boats on sea resources.

 

[pineappledan]

If this goes through, I'd rather see Carthage have a UU at fishing than at philosophy (I suspect whatever units are here will see very little usage).

Also I don't know if this would work, but you could maybe just make the work boat also a combat unit (which still consumes itself to build something)

The Tlingit custom civ currently has a unique combat fishing boat, as an example of what you’re talking about. The problem with fishing boat UUs is that the AI builds way too many of them, and you can’t have them obsolete, so the AI will continue making them wayyyy after they are too weak to do anything.

 

[CppMaster]

If you put the Trireme on any other tech it either won't require Galleys or Caravels won't require Triremes.

Why is that important? Currently, you can have the tech for museum without the tech for opera house and museum requires opera house.

 

[nekokon]

Personally, I don't like gamey reason to have a certain tech unlock something completely unrelated just because it's in a good location/timing. What philosophy has to do with making a ship ?

 

[KlHannibal2]

I like the introduction of the galley and getting the trireme later.

I don't like cutting the dromon and getting Carthage's ship so late.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal withdrawn by request on November 24, 2022, since it was resubmitted: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/counterproposal-early-naval-unit-rework.680507/