(8-33a) 4UC Polynesia Alternative

[DoveCDog]

Current:
1. Wayfinding
+2 Sight when Embarked
Can always Embark and move over Ocean
+2 Production from Fishing Boats and Atolls
No unhappiness from Isolation
Melee and Gunpowder units can construct Fishing Boats

2. Vaka Nui (replaces trireme):
available at Philosophy
120 Production Cost
19 CS
5 Movement
Reconaissance
City Plunder
Supply

Proposition:
1. Remove Fishing Boats construction from UA:
Melee and Gunpowder units can construct Fishing Boats

2. Vaka Nui (replaces Work Boat):
available at Fishing
80 Production Cost
Only 2 can be constructed per player
Obsoletes at Dynamite
5 Movement
Can improve water tiles without being expended
Screening
Medic I

Rationale:
1. This is based off the original Vaka Nui proposal. Polynesia currently has a problem wherein the AI doesn't know how to use it's unique ability to build Fishing Boats. This is "fixed" by letting them build Work Boats for free. We can fix this by giving them a unique unit that does it. We give the Vaka Nui powerful unique combat promotions so that it is not useless, but limit it to only 2 per player, similar to Syria's engines.

 

[pineappledan]

Without the combat bonus the vaka bui would have no military application. It is therefore entirely a civilian Econ bonus, and wouldn’t be appropriate for the UU slot it occupies. The vaka bui needs to augment the Polynesian military power or give up the slot for something else that will.

Also, Can you please write out the full proposed Vaka Nui? You can copy-paste most of it from the original proposal. people need to see your proposal without having to search for the original context.

 

[azum4roll]

It is therefore entirely a civilian Econ bonus, and wouldn’t be appropriate for the UU slot it occupies.

It's the same with Holkan and Bandeirantes. There's no way they're considered "military" units.

Either we stick to 2 UU + 2 others, or just drop any limitation.

 

[pineappledan]

The Holkan and bandeirantes are military units. They have CS values, they can kill things, pillage, gain XP, adopt promotions, and on and on.

 

[azum4roll]

The Holkan and bandeirantes are military units. They have CS values, they can kill things, pillage, gain XP, adopt promotions, and on and on.

Yeah, so add 1CS to Vaka Nui. Problem solved.

 

[Hinin]

Yeah, so add 1CS to Vaka Nui. Problem solved.

A good summary of the average level of your participation to the debates around 4UC integration. We all know you dislike recon units, 4UC, the integration and so on. Can we please have serious discussions now ?

 

[azum4roll]

This is just a counter-example to show how arbitrary that classification is. Either way, @Recursive has already said that there wouldn't be any limitation to component types, so we shouldn't treat the classification as a rule and can freely propose civs with all economic components.

Also, you must've missed all the "serious" suggestions I've given on the Discord server. Since 4UC is inevitably going to be in base VP, I'm also trying to make sure the extra stuff comply to my own standards (mainly for the AI's sake). Or are you try to say that I'm ineligible to say anything because I'm anti-integration?

 

[ma_kuh]

I find it funny to consider that the recently-changed Moai could have been classified previously as a military component because of its defense bonus.

I like the vaka nui in theory, but I don't think it makes sense as a military unit at all. (If possible I'd make it a unique cargo ship, but I have no idea what kind of play we have for that unit type.) You could just as easily have the Polynesian UA include "naval units have the Vaka Nui promotion, granting them 15% CS" and have the same power level of ability without shoehorning the fishing boat into the mix.

 

[Anarcomu]

The Vaka Nui also allow you to pillage fishing boats before conquest for the heal, and then rebuild them after city capture, so you don't have to built/buy/annex the city to get worker boat..

 

[ma_kuh]

I respect that the unique workboat is unique, but I don't think it's particularly interesting. At its core, it's what? +15% CS to your navy, free Medic I for your navy, and extra micromanagement of a civilian unit on naval battlefronts. The most interesting thing it does is slow down your navy because it's slower than your fleet, which you should play around.

It's going out of its way to pretend to be a military component. You wouldn't make a unique Worker as a military component just because it has Medic I and Leadership would you? You'd just bolt the ability to build roads and forts onto a military unit with extra CS... And this is what the UA is already doing, either by melee units or by naval units, the result is the same. That makes a lot more sense to me than using the workboat chassis.

If we are set on the vaka nui being a military unit then I say giving it a CS is the right option. I think I remember seeing an ability in 4UC that allows CS to scale by era, is that right? I would want that for the vaka nui, and then you get similar benefits as the Conquistador: you can aggressively maneuver this civilian unit because it won't die randomly when confronted, and it serves a unique dual eco/military purpose.

As a pure workboat it still needs to be escorted, which is why to me it comes back to... why not just let naval units do this?

 

[pineappledan]

@azum4roll's ironic suggestion of a 1 CS ancient unit actually got my gears turning last night.

If you had a unit like that, and it cost no supply, maintenance, and a really low cost, I wonder if you could make picket boat that could shroud your main force, create a ZOC buffer in front of your actual navy that robbed an enemy of the ability to maneuver and attack, and therefore their initiative.

It might not be very fun, too much micro, but still would totally have a valid use.

 

[N.Core]

Adding 1 CS would turn the unit from a naval civilian into a naval military, isn't it? So they occupy the same tile as the other naval units, unlike Great Admiral.

 

[Cebrudras]

Could we give it an ability that spawns military units? That would be enough to keep it a military component, right? 'Whenever you improve a Sea resource, roll the military CS unit gacha' would be too strong, but it could be a start. The flavour of exploration/settler ships spawning warriors also feels appropriate.

 

[Rosete]

@azum4roll's ironic suggestion of a 1 CS ancient unit actually got my gears turning last night.

If you had a unit like that, and it cost no supply, maintenance, and a really low cost, I wonder if you could make picket boat that could shroud your main force, create a ZOC shroud in front of your actual navy that robbed an enemy of the ability to maneuver and attack, and therefore their initiative.

It might not be very fun, too much micro, but still would totally have a valid use.

This is already the case with the Tlingit custom civ and their workboat UU. What ends up happening is the AI just spam a bunch of these. Due to their low CS, they served as mobile healing stations for the attacking army.

I really don't think a workboat UU is the way to go. At least make them a Gally UU, then there might be some use in clearing barbs.

 

[Civ459]

In 34UC 88.5, the Vaka Nui has become weaker and less attractive. XP from reconnaissance hinders the XP gain of the Maori (Recon Unit). Additionally, due to Polynesia's characteristics, the frequency of attacking coastal cities in the Classical Era is not high, so 'gold from city attack' does not present a significant advantage.

 

[DoveCDog]

Since the original proposal has been edited to remove the powerful +15% CS Aura, there wasn't much point for my counter-proposal. I decided rather than withdrawing to run along with the original idea and make it into a kind of civilian war unit, similar to Syria's engines. If anything, it'll help get rid of the AI problem.

 

[Kasch]

In 34UC 88.5, the Vaka Nui has become weaker and less attractive. XP from reconnaissance hinders the XP gain of the Maori (Recon Unit). Additionally, due to Polynesia's characteristics, the frequency of attacking coastal cities in the Classical Era is not high, so 'gold from city attack' does not present a significant advantage.

Especially given its a trireme replacement rather than a galley replacement. By the point I've gotten to philosophy I've already explored 2/3 of the map (standard size) on auto explore with maori warriors. Even worse, I tried to delay making scout-line units to leave tiles for the ships to see, but my cities have enough production to have nothing to build other than scouts as they don't need to build work boats.

 

[Recursive]

This proposal can be accomplished without new DLL code, and is therefore sponsored by @azum4roll.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.