2000 BC (Noldodan's turns)

[DaveShack]

I missed this entirely in the 2500 BC thread the first time it appeared... wcil pushed us up to 2050 BC, so it's now Noldodan's turn at 2000 BC.

 

[Piparoo]

While I'm really enjoying the discussion going on in wcil's thread, Noldodan seems to be AWOL. Perhaps we should select the next DP on the list to keep things moving.

Cheers!

 

[scienide09]

The purpose of the warmup game is to work out the kinks for the full demogame, yes? If so, then how long does the DP get to take turns?
I read somewhere (in the draft constitution, I think) that there is a min and max timeframe for turns to be taken, and if that doesn't happen, the default action is to go straight to the next person on the DP list.

 

[Blkbird]

It's two whole days since wcil posted his turns. I too think it's now time for the next DP to take over.

 

[DaveShack]

I've send Noldodan a PM, let's wait at least a day and then someone can take over.

The discussion on the upcoming turns can continue here, no reason we can't just use the same thread no matter who plays them.

 

[koondrad]

In the sign up thread he said he was unavailable on Mondays and Wednesdays.

 

[Blkbird]

In the sign up thread he said he was unavailable on Mondays and Wednesdays.

Which means he should have been available on Tuesday. That was two days ago, and the last turns had already been completed.

 

[Mike Lemmer]

While we're waiting for the next Despot-in-Line, let's move our strategy discussion here. For reference, I've divided my two cents into categories for easy referral.

Exploration:
Our nearby Scout should explore the dark patches NE & SE of our capital. Once we establish city #3, we'll probably start expanding eastward; a full map of that area will determine where city #4 goes.

Our two tundra Scouts should relocate NW of our capitol where the three civilizations' borders will meet. They can Sentry on resources to tell when & where they expand.

Expansion:
I agree with Blkbird that city #3 should be 1 space NW of the horses. Normally I would prefer to settle near fresh water, but the +2 Health we get for being Expansive will compensate for that. (Note: The Civilopedia says Oasises are a fresh water source. That tile does get fresh water after all!) Getting both the horses & the cows will give us 5 hammer-rich tiles. Our front line city would be a unit-producing powerhouse as well!

Production:
Karakorum (Capital): Worker>Barracks>Settler>Archer. Rather than wait for an Archer to be built to escort the settler, we can send the Archer currently guarding Karakorum with him; the Warrior can guard the city for the 2 turns it will take to build a replacement Archer.

Beshbalik: A granary once the workboat is finished. (10 turns) It's faster to build than Obelisk>Workboat and it will speed up growth faster.

Improvements:
Build the road to Beshbalik & connect the wheat. The second worker should farm the bananas then start building a road to city #3 before the settlers are sent.

Research:
Hold off Masonry for now and research Writing instead. Libraries will help our coin rich cities & an Open Border pact with the Egyptians would spread Hinduism to us. Learn Sailing next to prepare for our coastal expansion, then switch back to Masonry to build the Great Lighthouse.

Military:
We have the units to fend off barbarians, but not the resources to invade other countries yet. Hold off on military production until we hook Copper & Horses up.

Resources:
I disagree that marble should be our first building material priority. Most Marble structures are geared towards Culture/Religion, and we're the Mongols. Enough said. We should grab the Copper SW of our capital first. Why?
1. Axemen require copper.
2. Copper doubles the production speed of The Colossus. We're near the coastline and two large fresh water lakes; I predict 4 of our 5 first cities will have water resources. The +1 gold from the Colossus will turn our cities into gold mines.

 

[Blkbird]

Exploration:
Our nearby Scout should explore the dark patches NE & SE of our capital. Once we establish city #3, we'll probably start expanding eastward; a full map of that area will determine where city #4 goes.

Our two tundra Scouts should relocate NW of our capitol where the three civilizations' borders will meet. They can Sentry on resources to tell when & where they expand.

Do we need two scouts for that? I'd like to pull one southwards to see if the "peninsula" S of our capital is in fact a peninsula, or a connector to a larger piece of land. In my opion, this is a question of great strategic importance. Imagine, for instance, the small but existing possibilty there is another rival force down there!

So my vote is for scout 1 (on ice) to go towards the east coast and explore the few dark spots remaining, scout 2 (on desert) to take the shortest way to the southern "peninsula", and scout 3 (on tundra) to heal and then head SW to inspect the space between our two known neighbours.

Expansion:
I agree with Blkbird that city #3 should be 1 space NW of the horses. Normally I would prefer to settle near fresh water, but the +2 Health we get for being Expansive will compensate for that. (Note: The Civilopedia says Oasises are a fresh water source. That tile does get fresh water after all!) Getting both the horses & the cows will give us 5 hammer-rich tiles. Our front line city would be a unit-producing powerhouse as well!

No objection here.

Production:
Karakorum (Capital): Worker>Barracks>Settler>Archer. Rather than wait for an Archer to be built to escort the settler, we can send the Archer currently guarding Karakorum with him; the Warrior can guard the city for the 2 turns it will take to build a replacement Archer.

Beshbalik: A granary once the workboat is finished. (10 turns) It's faster to build than Obelisk>Workboat and it will speed up growth faster.

Definitely agree.

Improvements:
Build the road to Beshbalik & connect the wheat. The second worker should farm the bananas then start building a road to city #3 before the settlers are sent.

Pretty simple choice. Are there serious alternatives?

Research:
Hold off Masonry for now and research Writing instead. Libraries will help our coin rich cities & an Open Border pact with the Egyptians would spread Hinduism to us. Learn Sailing next to prepare for our coastal expansion, then switch back to Masonry to build the Great Lighthouse.

100% same opinion here.

Military:
We have the units to fend off barbarians, but not the resources to invade other countries yet. Hold off on military production until we hook Copper & Horses up.

Totally agree yet again.

Resources:
I disagree that marble should be our first building material priority. Most Marble structures are geared towards Culture/Religion, and we're the Mongols. Enough said. We should grab the Copper SW of our capital first. Why?
1. Axemen require copper.
2. Copper doubles the production speed of The Colossus. We're near the coastline and two large fresh water lakes; I predict 4 of our 5 first cities will have water resources. The +1 gold from the Colossus will turn our cities into gold mines.

Yes, and again I recommend Karakorum -1:+8 (two spots below the rice and two spots left of the gold) as settle point. The copper will have to wait until city growth, but we get a coastal city with three great resources in the long end.

 

[Blkbird]

(Sorry, double post.)

 

[Piparoo]

Do we need two scouts for that? I'd like to pull one southwards to see if the "peninsula" S is in fact a peninsula, or a connector to a larger piece of land. In my opinion, this is a question of great strategic importance. Imagine, for instance, the small but existing possibilty there is another rival force down there!

I'm not sure which peninsula you mean. If it's the southernmost part of the continent that you are suggesting be explored, from what I remember when I last loaded the save, there isn't any more of the continent to be revealed southwards.

Cheers!

 

[Blkbird]

I'm not sure which peninsula you mean. If it's the southernmost part of the continent that you are suggesting be explored, from what I remember when I last loaded the save, there isn't any more of the continent to be revealed southwards.

I mean the part south of my suggested settling site, Karakurom -1:+8.

 

[Mike Lemmer]

I think the scout that's close to the capital would be able to explore that entire area before the other 2 even make it back.

BTW Blk, could you snip that double post you made?

 

[starbolt]

Expansion:
I agree with Blkbird that city #3 should be 1 space NW of the horses. Normally I would prefer to settle near fresh water, but the +2 Health we get for being Expansive will compensate for that. (Note: The Civilopedia says Oasises are a fresh water source. That tile does get fresh water after all!) Getting both the horses & the cows will give us 5 hammer-rich tiles. Our front line city would be a unit-producing powerhouse as well!

cross-posting my argument from the other thread...

I like the hill better than the plain because you get a little more of the river for commerce, you get a more defensible position (important for a buffering frontier town), and at least half again as many forest chops to hurry production along. You'll almost certainly gain access to the wheat/cow through culture and you'll have room enough to build another town N or NNE to exploit these resources.

This town *is* going to be attacked, being the wedge into Egyptian and Arabian expansion areas.

Regardless of which location is picked, this is the region and resource we need to exploit next!

Production:
Karakorum (Capital): Worker>Barracks>Settler>Archer. Rather than wait for an Archer to be built to escort the settler, we can send the Archer currently guarding Karakorum with him; the Warrior can guard the city for the 2 turns it will take to build a replacement Archer.

Agree.

Beshbalik: A granary once the workboat is finished. (10 turns) It's faster to build than Obelisk>Workboat and it will speed up growth faster.

Disagree. Without culture, Beshbalik's boundaries will *never* expand. This limits you to the fish and the wheat and 2 water tiles for Size 4. Improving those two resources might give you another tile (our second hammer). If this city is to ever contribute, we need to expand its borders (obelisk is our only current option, library/monastery/temples are better options when they become available).

Research:
Hold off Masonry for now and research Writing instead. Libraries will help our coin rich cities & an Open Border pact with the Egyptians would spread Hinduism to us. Learn Sailing next to prepare for our coastal expansion, then switch back to Masonry to build the Great Lighthouse.

Where do you propose to get the hammers for Great Lighthouse? If you built the marble city you'd have a shot (forest, hills, & plains), but you're just pissing into the wind building GL in Beshbalik.

The rest is a pretty valid tact to take. Note that getting Hinduism would further reinforce the idea of Masonry->Marble because you get access to the Hindu Mandir with Music and 3 temples and we're going to need missionaries. Missionaries require either a monastery Meditation/Polytheism-> Priesthood or Masonry&Polytheism-> Monotheism (better) for Organized Religion.

Just getting Hinduism and hoping it will spread doesn't provide enough benefit on its own without follow-through.

Military:
We have the units to fend off barbarians, but not the resources to invade other countries yet. Hold off on military production until we hook Copper & Horses up.

Agreed. Barracks are fine, but units can wait for the moment.

Resources:
I disagree that marble should be our first building material priority. Most Marble structures are geared towards Culture/Religion, and we're the Mongols. Enough said.

Partly true. We *are* the Mongols

Seriously though, it's partly true because many of the marble structures are Culture/Science. Ignoring any of the aspect of the game because of your race pick is an unworthy argument unless it's a role-playing game and you're doing it for color.

We should grab the Copper SW of our capital first. Why?
1. Axemen require copper.
2. Copper doubles the production speed of The Colossus. We're near the coastline and two large fresh water lakes; I predict 4 of our 5 first cities will have water resources. The +1 gold from the Colossus will turn our cities into gold mines.

Axemen no longer motivate me now that we have access to our UU. If our opponents start showing us Spearman/Pikemen, then I want Axemen, Otherwise, the Keshik is more than a match for anything else in the field (War Chariots are inferior and Camel Archers don’t show up for some time, yet).

I predict that The Colossus requires coastline and the fresh water lakes will not qualify (fresh water cities cannot even build boats in Civ IV - this was a surprise to me, too!). Further, the early coastline spots either lack the hammers to produce wonders or are difficult to develop due to jungle. Again, the exception to this is the marble city.

Lastly, we're going to have a real tough time connecting the copper city to our capital logistically. We'll get access to the resource, but it will be difficult to protect from marauders. I'll toss in this wildcard option in support of your copper city... there are 3 possible city sites along the coast where we could build a galley to send into the lake to shuttle units back and forth as needed. This doesn't replace the need for roads, but does give you some flexibility in case you're cut off and another candidate for your science/merchant city.

---

In short, I *recommend* that we:

1) build the horse city.
2) decide to either continue land-grabbing west-ish/inland or develop a coastal presence. I'm leaning towards the former, but I think your 4th city needs to be a coastal marble city regardless.
3) Let Beshbalik grow to size 3 and then start building settlers/workers (the only thing it’s really qualified for at this point).

Future build sites:
3) Horse city (3 NW, 1W) - this leaves room another build site that I like as a second buffer city.
4) Marble city (4E) - I'd have to see the shaded areas to the north to know if there's a better location. There's a good argument for 3E, 1NE to access the additional forest while building and the 2 extra plains squares when we learn how to irrigate inland. Either way, this channel city makes an excellent naval hub, has access to the marble (1Fd/3Ham/2Com) and the rice (2F, +1H), and eventual grasslands for cottages as you clear it out.
5) Southwestern buffer city (5 SW, 1W) on the little lake - this is intended to reserve the copper for our use and pinch Arabia. If they build around us, we can pop the culture on this city and Karakorum to flip it. Given our proximity to Arabia, I think it likely that we will be in conflict with them sooner than later.

After that, I think it's too hard to predict what your opponents will do; hopefully we've staked out enough ground.

North-Northwestern buffer city 5 NW, 2 N (desert square) to claim those two resources I omitted in the Horse City and better protect Beshbalik (which couldn't produce an archer to save its life).

Southwestern filler city (1W, 2 SW) on the freshwater lake - a versatile location for logistics, production, and commerce.

Copper City (2 SW, 3E) - given the difficulty in exploiting this resource, I think it more that we will find iron nearby before we have this city in place.

 

[Blkbird]

I like the hill better than the plain because you get a little more of the river for commerce, you get a more defensible position (important for a buffering frontier town), and at least half again as many forest chops to hurry production along. You'll almost certainly gain access to the wheat/cow through culture and you'll have room enough to build another town N or NNE to exploit these resources.

We don't just want the health benefit, we want the food provided by the wheat and the cow so the city can grow faster.

3) Horse city (3 NW, 1W) - this leaves room another build site that I like as a second buffer city.

This location will give us *neither* the wheat *or* the cow to work on - it's terrible!

4) Marble city (4E) - I'd have to see the shaded areas to the north to know if there's a better location. There's a good argument for 3E, 1NE to access the additional forest while building and the 2 extra plains squares when we learn how to irrigate inland. Either way, this channel city makes an excellent naval hub, has access to the marble (1Fd/3Ham/2Com) and the rice (2F, +1H), and eventual grasslands for cottages as you clear it out.

I really hate it when my cities overlap so much, especially when one of them is my capital. A city fighting for workable tiles with your capital is the last thing you want.

5) Southwestern buffer city (5 SW, 1W) on the little lake - this is intended to reserve the copper for our use and pinch Arabia. If they build around us, we can pop the culture on this city and Karakorum to flip it. Given our proximity to Arabia, I think it likely that we will be in conflict with them sooner than later.

Now I've almost completely lost you. This city would have a lot of unworkable moutains around it and no resources whatsoever in its reach. Please don't take this as an offense, but I think you take too much chess thinking into this game. To build there would be a classic "blockade move", it damages one of your oppenents but doesn't really benefit you much - it does cost you a lot though.

North-Northwestern buffer city 5 NW, 2 N (desert square) to claim those two resources I omitted in the Horse City and better protect Beshbalik (which couldn't produce an archer to save its life).

Again, I'm absolutely against it, as this city's workable tiles would be overlapping with those of your suggested Horse City.

Southwestern filler city (1W, 2 SW) on the freshwater lake - a versatile location for logistics, production, and commerce.

Oh my god, you're building directly into your capital's zone. No, that's crazy to me.

Copper City (2 SW, 3E) - given the difficulty in exploiting this resource, I think it more that we will find iron nearby before we have this city in place.

I assume you mean "2 SW, 3 S", and I don't see what you choose *that* spot to build the Copper City. It has much to many unworkable moutains around it.

So, as a summary, I disagree with ALL your suggestions for future settling sites. I hope you don't take it personally too much. We just seem to have conflicting basic principles regarding the game.

 

[Mike Lemmer]

Build on the hill. This town *is* going to be attacked, being the wedge into Egyptian and Arabian expansion areas.

I disagree. None of the hills are in a proper location to use all three resources, and putting the city on a hill will remove one more mine, reducing maximum hammer output by about 1/3rd. We'll also lose access to the wheat resource, so we'll have to build more farms to sustain our mines there. It's not worth it for a 25% defense bonus (50% defense for archers). Besides, if we have proper defenses they should rarely get close enough to siege the city.

Disagree. Without culture, Beshbalik's boundaries will *never* expand. This limits you to the fish and the wheat and 2 water tiles for Size 4. Improving those two resources might give you another tile (our second hammer). If this city is to ever contribute, we need to expand its borders (obelisk is our only current option, library/monastery/temples are better options when they become available).

The only significant resource expanding our borders will net us is the gold. Thanks to our Expansive trait, our main hindrance to growth is Happiness. Getting crabs will not help our cities grow yet. It's not worth expanding to get the forest, either; we have enough food to just mine the desert hill. Besides, if we hold off a bit, we could build a library in 7 turns or a monastery once religion spreads instead. With Beshbalik's puny hammer rate & our research rate, I'd say religion will spread to it just a few turns after an Obelisk was made.

Then again, Karakorum will soon hit the Happiness limit, so we need that gold...

Hmmm, we could make a Granary first to stimulate growth, and since Beshbalik will be booming with population, we can whip 1-2 of them to finish the Obelisk in one turn! Or whip the Granary instead. Or whip the Obelisk then build the Granary. Or whip both.

Regardless, with as much food & as little hammers as it has, I predict a lot of whipping in store for Beshbalik.

Where do you propose to get the hammers for Great Lighthouse? If you built the marble city you'd have a shot (forest, hills, & plains), but you're just pissing into the wind building GL in Beshbalik.

My main beef with the Marble city is food. Build it N of the marble and you only have 2 farmable tiles until Civil Service. Build it SE of the marble and you conflict with more of Karakorum's squares, lose a hill and can't use any of the land S of it until Iron Working's learned. Unless our scouts reveal some nice +food resources in that fog nearby, I can't recommend it.

Now if I were going for a hammer coastal city, I'd recommend the spot just E of the gems to the SE. That gives us access to 2 farms, the Rice, & 2 happiness resources (Gold & Gems) that will make it a major coin city as well. It won't conflict with any of our capital's squares and has enough grassland to grow into a major city.

Seriously though, it's partly true because many of the marble structures are Culture/Science. Ignoring any of the aspect of the game because of your race pick is an unworthy argument unless it's a role-playing game and you're doing it for color.

It will fall within our borders in 40-90 turns anyway, depending on how much we invest in culture at our capitol. (If we get Hinduism fast, it could be in 20-30 turns.) Building a city just for the marble will give us a mediocre city spot just to grab a resource 10-20 turns early. Can we afford to toss settlers around in the early game like that?

I predict that The Colossus requires coastline and the fresh water lakes will not qualify (fresh water cities cannot even build boats in Civ IV - this was a surprise to me, too!). Further, the early coastline spots either lack the hammers to produce wonders or are difficult to develop due to jungle. Again, the exception to this is the marble city.

And the gem city.

Lastly, we're going to have a real tough time connecting the copper city to our capital logistically. We'll get access to the resource, but it will be difficult to protect from marauders. I'll toss in this wildcard option in support of your copper city... there are 3 possible city sites along the coast where we could build a galley to send into the lake to shuttle units back and forth as needed. This doesn't replace the need for roads, but does give you some flexibility in case you're cut off and another candidate for your science/merchant city.

Building a road straight south from Karakorum & looping around the mountains would work as well. Horse riders will be able to cover that distance in 3 turns. Another idea is to send that particular Settler out with a strong contingent. A stack of three archers could protect the town from anything short of swordsmen.

In short, I *recommend* that we:

1) build the horse city.
2) decide to either continue land-grabbing west-ish/inland or develop a coastal presence. I'm leaning towards the former, but I think your 4th city needs to be a coastal marble city regardless.
3) Let Beshbalik grow to size 3 and then start building settlers/workers (the only thing it’s really qualified for at this point).

Beshbalik has enough food that we could make quite a few buildings with the whip. Time to put Slavery to use!

 

[starbolt]

We don't just want the health benefit, we want the food provided by the wheat and the cow so the city can grow faster.

Sure, but I'm offering the possibility of building two useful cities as opposed to one better city.

Maybe people just like uber-cities. I like to get the most value out of the land. Setttling on the desert for a 2nd buffer city (city squares produce 2F,1H regardless of the terrain that was there) not only improves the land, but also allows both cities to be self-sustaining / contributing and allows them to assist in mutual defense. The 2nd buffer city also offers Beshbalik sorely needed defense.

 

[Blkbird]

Sure, but I'm offering the possibility of building two useful cities as opposed to one better city.

Maybe people just like uber-cities. I like to get the most value out of the land. Setttling on the desert for a 2nd buffer city (city squares produce 2F,1H regardless of the terrain that was there) not only improves the land, but also allows both cities to be self-sustaining / contributing and allows them to assist in mutual defense. The 2nd buffer city also offers Beshbalik sorely needed defense.

It's not about uber-cities at all. It's very simple: You build your cities too close to each other - they fight for workable tiles. I've never seen any other player do something like this, as it's not logical, and I believe it's explained even in the game's handbook as bad practice. Being in the handbook of course doesn't make it true automatically, but it is supposed to be a basic common knowledge - which you are challenging here. You need to explain how this could work, how overlapping workable tiles would *not* be a problem later when the cities grow.

 

[starbolt]

So, as a summary, I disagree with ALL your suggestions for future settling sites. I hope you don't take it personally too much. We just seem to have conflicting basic principles regarding the game.

I don't take it personally, but you could help your arguments a great deal by using less judgementally charged words like "terrible" and so forth...

---

As to theory, I think you are all hung up on the notion that every city needs to work 20ish tiles and/or expand to pop 28. That's fine and I'll try to respect that, but I think it's fair to point out that there are alternatives and there are metagame reasons behind those alternatives.

In Civ IV, you have the ability to use the City Governor to limit growth in specific cities (if you're disinclined to manage growth manually). Also, there's a lot of value in utilizing specialists in Civ IV and they do not need tiles to work (Caste Sytem has some outstanding situational uses).

 

[starbolt]

Beshbalik has enough food that we could make quite a few buildings with the whip. Time to put Slavery to use!

The other thing I think Beshbalik has to offer in the early game is to specialize settlers/workers until we get lighthouse. Since food counts as production, this town is comparable to any other without re-directing hammers which could be better applied elsewhere.