20k Culture Guide?

[Takhisis]

Is it? Zero luxuries or even water for irrigation. It was also long time before I was able to get contact as well as any rivals are a long way of sea tiles away too! My GA also fell when there was no wonder to build

And you can just use the golden age to build up any cultural buildings (yes, even colossea) and, of course, granaries and harbours for a larger population which will in turn be more productive.

So hard to resist... how can I get the tech's I need etc if I don't get other cities up and contributing to research?

We have these libraries and universities, you know.
You can just manage to have one culture/wonder farm city if you dedicate workers to it while using every other city to pump out the workers and settlers needed to financially support the civilisation as a whole. OR you can luck out and get a scientific leader very early as I did last weekend, get him to build you the Pyramids and then every city is a worker/settler pump; in fact, if there's enough grassland terrain nearby then you might be forced to keep resettling your population just to avoid getting rioting.

 

[justanick]

Is it? Zero luxuries or even water for irrigation.

Indeed this seems like a poor start. You want to start at a river. Not necessarily for irrigation but for the ability to reach city size very very early and for the extra commerce, of course.

Wouldn't you need enough defensive units in case of an attack? Obviously less of a problem if you're on an island (except for eventual Berserkers, anyway), but just on general principle?

Building Knights Templar and Status of Zeus are almost mandatory for a good OCC. If you have units from them, then you donnot need any other military before the industrial age.

As a principle AI seems unusually untempted to seek war with a one city nation and the second and third culture expansion at 100 and 1000 culture are a good buffer.

So hard to resist... how can I get the tech's I need etc if I don't get other cities up and contributing to research?

The simply answer is that you will inevitably fall behind at some point. The art is to keep that to be late enough to have limited impact. At regent that is significantly easier than at emperor.

During the ancient age you should be able to lead research. Techs are still very cheap and AI has not expanded enough to clearly outpace you in terms of research.

Also you do want to trade away techs. Make AI pay gold for them to finance your research and curb theirs.

You clearly want the extra commerce from the Colossus of Rhodes. This wonder is cheap and perhaps even more important than the Statue of Zeus. But really you do of course want both.

Another thing to keep in mind are tourist attractions. After 1000 years many wonders start to become tourist attractions which initially gives 2 more base commerce, 4 after 1501 years, 6 after 1751 years, 8 after 1876 years, 10 after 2001 years, 12 after 2251 years and finally 14 after 2501 years. Due to the dependence on years it really only counts for the very oldest wonders. Anything build after ~250 BC becomes more and more irrelevant as by the time it increases your beakers per turn most wonders are built already. Research is meant to enable building wonders including Shakesspeare with 8 culture per turn and the ablity to reach metropolis size.

You need to get production as high as reasonably possible as early as possible. Early on you want to build a granary to reach size 12 early and then a second worker, of course. After that the culture production may start. If you have access to ivory this is easier as with the completion of the Statue of Zeus military worries start to decline.

Anarchy can be a tough decision. You need to become a republic for proper research. But having no production for ~5 turns is a great inconvenience when time is of the essence.

 

[justanick]

Having a look at the improvements this shows wrong priorities. You need no courthouse in the capital. You not really need barracks. You need no marketplace before quite late. You probably should not prioritize a temple if there are wonders AI may snatch from you. A 20k OCC is really a wonder race. You can build a temple after a wonder, but the other way around may not work due to fierce competetion. A temple is of course cheaper and therefore offers more culture per shield invested. But that does not necessarily mean it will have been the better decision 400 turns later.

It probably makes sense to list all wonders and all other culture buildings and decide on their merits in a 20k OCC.

Once you have plenty units from Statue of Zeus and Knights Templar it can of course make sense for you to take some towns (but with size clearly greater than 1) from AI. Then it would no longer be an OCC, but to no disadvantage of building wonders in your capital. Hell, if you run out of wonders to build, you might even build settlers.

 

[tjs282]

Having a look at the improvements this shows wrong priorities. You need no courthouse in the capital. You not really need barracks. You need no marketplace before quite late. You probably should not prioritize a temple if there are wonders AI may snatch from you.

There is nothing in the 20K-town screenie to show Aiken_Drummurabi's build-priorities; the list of town-improvements reflects their order in the .biq, not the order they were built. And that screenie is from the late game: the date is 1864 AD, and the 20K-town obviously already has a Factory+PowerPlant, so Industrialization must be known (and presumably Universal Suffrage has already been built?).

So with the exception of the Courthouse (which is never needed in the capital), I'm not sure that statement is really justifiable?

For a 20K game, a Temple is definitely a worthwhile build at some point. And the Babs know CBurial from game-start, and get Temples for 30s, so it represents a cheap rush-job which can be completed at the player's discretion, and relatively early — though better after the first Settler and Colossus, of course! — for the multiplied Culture after 1000 years.

I'd also have thought that a Market would be a good build for the Lux-Happies, to ensure that my 20K town stays happy (and/or enjoys WLTD as often as possible), especially once it hits metro-size after Shakespeare'sT has been built.

And while a Barracks should not be an early priority for 20K, the Crusaders show that KT was built, so a Barracks to boost them to vet-status is certainly desirable.

(If I'm ever able to build SoZ, then I will likely not be hand-building much additional military — so a Barracks would usually be my very next [rush-]build in the SoZ-town, to ensure that all my ACavs start as vets.)

What did strike me more about those screenies was that there are still multiple obsolete units in play (Spearmen in landlocked towns? Why?), and a large stack of idle Workers in the 20K-town. So I do wonder a little what the Babylonian military budget looks like...?

I mean, income is obviously already quite healthy, but some of those Workers could have been joined to at least the 20K-town, to bring it to Pop20 -- and/or added to all the other coastal cities to bring them all to Pop12 -- for even more commerce per turn.

So it's possible/likely that research could have happened faster than it apparently did; the current research project is still only Atomic Theory (in 1864) — and ToE will 'unfortunately' finish before AT, so one of those 2 free-techs will be wasted (unless the remaining beakers can be bought from someone else?).

 

[justanick]

the list of town-improvements reflects their order in the .biq, not the order they were built.

I guess you are right there. This does of course render my conclusions void. Mea culpa.

I'd also have thought that a Market would be a good build for the Lux-Happies, to ensure that my 20K town stays happy (and/or enjoys WLTD as often as possible), especially once it hits metro-size after Shakespeare'sT has been built.

Sure. But the priority is rather low. Many wonders provide content faces. Before the hanging gardens expire you can get 3 content faces from them, 3 more from the Mausoleum, 2 more from Bach, 1 more from temples, 3 or 6 more from cathedrals, 2 more from colleseum and 8 more from Shakespere. Together with 2 citizens starting content at regent this can suffice for size 27 which is more than size 20. It is highly likely for a marketplace to not be needed in the capital.

A WLTKD in the capital is useless.

And while a Barracks should not be an early priority for 20K, the Crusaders show that KT was built, so a Barracks to boost them to vet-status is certainly desirable.

(If I'm ever able to build SoZ, then I will likely not be hand-building much additional military — so a Barracks would usually be my very next [rush-]build in the SoZ-town, to ensure that all my ACavs start as vets.)

Since AC already start with an extra HP, barracks are not much of a priority then. After Knights Templar it is different.

 

[templar_x]

the temple is usually the first build in any 20k game. just saying.

 

[Takhisis]

Unless you are actually doing a one-city challenge, if it's just about getting a one-city cultural victory you could consider doing this in your second or third city so that you an enjoy the benefit of pre-building wonders by pretending to be building the palace or forbidden palace. In a capital city, for a long time your best pre-build is only the colosseum.

 

[templar_x]

is this a reply to my post? i was talking about the 20k city, no matter whether it is a OCC game or not. My remark was meant as a reply to tjs´ and justanick´s posts, that a temple is to be built at some later time... but i think, it has to be highly prioritized.
t_x

 

[CKS]

If I'm not religious and I won't be chopping the temple, I generally build the Colossus before the temple (assuming I'm coastal). Unless I'm rushing the wonder, that is the only one I'd typically build before the temple, though.

 

[Takhisis]

Why would you chop the temple?

 

[justanick]

Why would you chop the temple?

What would you chop instead? You cannot use forest chopping for wonders.

 

[CKS]

I'd chop the temple if I had forests that I was going to chop - for example, if I needed more two-food tiles or if I have more forests than I need to work. (If I were short on shields, I might not chop since I can't reforest for a while.) Chopping two forests into a 60-shield temple hurries it along nicely. I won't want to chop into a library, usually, because I hope to be in Republic by the time I learn literature, and I'll just buy it, typically disbanding a warrior or two along the way.

 

[Takhisis]

What would you chop instead? You cannot use forest chopping for wonders.

Oh! Sorry, I misunderstood the above as dismantling the temple for gold and/or shields.

 

[Spoonwood]

the temple is usually the first build in any 20k game. just saying.

In my games I usually went curragh-settler-Colossus on Deity and Demigod. On Sid I would usually go settler from the capital, then the 2nd city would start on the Pyramids immediately. A temple would come later.

 

[templar_x]

well, either the first or the second culture build in most high-scoring games i have seen. that is what i was trying to say, as there seemed to be suggested, like, "the small temple will be built some time", as if you would squeeze them in between a market and a barracks some time in the middle ages.
t_x