3.15 City unrest

Ahriman

Tyrant
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City resistance seems to have completely disappeared, at least when I capture cities and select the mercy option.

I hope this isn't deliberate, it makes conquest much too powerful, it's too easy to chain together mass conquests.
 
I've noticed that since the release before this one. There's no resistance unless you raze the city, which is laughable. It allows the cities to attack their former owners the turn after I capture it too.

City Resistance needs to be put back into the game.
 
There should be city resistance with the Force option.
But speaking in design terms, there should still be city resistance with the Mercy option; that is, the intended design should not remove city resistance. A city captured through mercy is much more economically valuable: it has a larger population and more buildings. So it is very important that there be a significant resistance period to counteract that value. In the current version I can capture a city, then immediately annex it and start buying defensive and happiness buildings.
 
Choosing Mercy and not having resistance creates an easy exploit: Just go in the city panel and click "Raze City"

Voila, you now get to raze the city without city resistance, plus the city gets to defend itself in the meantime by firing ranged attacks.
 
My latest games I am using beserkers. 4 beserkers are enough to wipe out whole civs by themselves.

Every satelite city I am sacking so temp unhappiness with those but with the capitols I am Mercy-ing them and still rolling right along. Pretty much taken out every city in 5 civs so far. Getting some nasty looks from the Civs on the other continent but no problems with unhappiness to speak of.
 
This is not a bug and is more of an issue in design. See: https://github.com/Thalassicus/cep-bnw/issues/224 and http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503813

I can adjust the amount of population lost and the resistance period for the Mercy and Force options so if you guys come up with a good alternative I can make the adjustments.

I don't see anything that in this discussion that ever proposed removing the city resistance mechanic. In fact, the design proposal specifically says that the city capture options are to have "normal gameplay effects".
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12685513&postcount=52

What I understood the intended design of the three features was:

a) Mercy = standard GEM style city capture with minimal population loss and not much building destruction.
You pay a high upfront price in terms of unhappiness, and have a long period of resistance.
But after that, you get a very profitable city, which still has a large population and lots of buildings.

b) Force = standard vanilla city capture, with major population loss (half) and more building destruction.
The upfront cost is smaller: you kill half the population and so have less unhappiness to worry about, and the resistance period is shorter (because resistance is a function of city population). And you get a larger gold income from capture (=the sale value of the destroyed buildings?).
But the long term benefit is smaller: the city has a smaller population and fewer buildings.

c) Wrath = standard raze
High upfront unhappiness, but zero long-term unhappiness or social policy/science penalties (because the city will no longer exist), and effective denial to your enemies if you don't think you can hold the city long term.

Mercy and Wrath would both have standard resistance, which IIRC is the size of the population after capture, though potentially we could have something with slightly less than this.
[eg Resistance goes up by 1 per pop up size 10, then 2 per 3 pop up to size 20, then 1 per 2 pop above that. So a size 16 city would have 14 turns of resistance. And then there could be social policy effects - especially in Autocracy - that reduce that. It could be less than this too, these values might be too high. 1 turn per pop up to size 5 and 1 per 2 pop after that would probably be plenty.]
 
The values Ahriman and Thal proposed seem right on the mark to me. I'd probably double or triple the gold award for Force and Wrath, but that's secondary to happiness, population loss and especially resistance.
 
Is this another case of the intended results not being adequately detailed to the player?

With all the renaming of options and adjusting of mechanics, perhaps more detailed tooltips or pedia entries or something would make it more clear just what is happening.
I vaguely remember the discussions happening before the change but in game can't recall the differences.
 
Is this another case of the intended results not being adequately detailed to the player?

No. It is a case if the intended design not being reflected in the current code. There was never a design intention for there to be no resistance from the Mercy option. The only city capture option which shouldn't have resistance is Raze.
 
I know this is a bug thread but,

Is it possible to have the player who lost the city decide what they want the citizens to do? This way if the Citizens are revolting it doesn't matter if you show mercy. Whereas if they are going peacefully and you show mercy there may not be any resistance at all.

It seems to me resistance should be in the form of spawning basic garrison troops that need to be dealt with by fighting.
 
It seems to me resistance should be in the form of spawning basic garrison troops that need to be dealt with by fighting.
I disagree. The point of resistance is to make it so that you can't immediately benefit from the city, you can't start buying units or defensive structures in it, and you can't start using it's ranged attack. This gives the defender a decent chance at recapturing the city.
It is also designed to delay the economic benefit you get from conquest (thousands of accumulated food and production tied up in the citizens and buildings/wonders).

Spawning a few units for the defender doesn't really accomplish these goals.

Whereas if they are going peacefully and you show mercy there may not be any resistance at all.
There should always be resistance from combat, I don't see why we would ever want you to be able to capture a city and get full access to it instantly.

Remember that resistance doesn't always mean violent resistance, it just represents that you can't start fully utilizing that city as part of your economy and military immediately.

I think there is a risk of getting too carried away with the names (Mercy, Force, etc.) which were just for flavor, rather than thinking about the gameplay effects we need.
 
I agree with Ahriman's comment regarding the new names. I've on more than one occasion clicked on Force when I meant to click Wrath, and vice versa, because the two sound similar.

I'd prefer it if we would forego the pointless flavor text and stick to clear functionality and usability by using more functionally descriptive names (Peacefully Occupy, Sack City, Raze/Burn City).
 
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