(3-VT) Replace Indirect Fire with mobility for archery units

[GeneralAmadeus]

Ranged infantry units get +1 move promotion that replaces Indirect Fire. Siege and naval units remain as they are.

 

[DeAnno]

This is an interesting idea, I'm not sure what to think about it. You see similar with special movement archers from various civs and it doesn't feel too overpowered. Also it helps differentiate Ranged from Siege more.

 

[Lysam]

Ranged units are already distinct enough from siege through their unhindered movement in enemy territory. Ability to move and shoot in enemy land is completely different to how siege operates. If we give all ability to gain bonus movement, both uniqueness of civs such as Incans or the Iroqious will be diminished, and we'll deal with potentially OP range units assaults from them, as they will have even more movement.

I say no.

 

[youngsteve]

All that will do is seriously weaken Babylon, which isn't a strong civ anyway.

 

[DeAnno]

Babylon is actually extremely strong imo, but I didn't interpret this as changing the Babylon indirect fire promo, only changing the selectable promo gotten during upgrades. It could probably use clarification though.

 

[GeneralAmadeus]

I was not aware Babylon had something like that. But after a bit of consideration I think it is best to change the bowman's Indirect Fire to Mobility. Having an archery unit that can move 3 right away sounds pretty good to me. It won't diminish Incas and Iroquois because: a) You first need to earn the promotion. b) You can opt to take another promotion in it's stead. c) This will allow them to potentially have some very fast archery units. d) The other units are unchanged in this regard.

 

[pineappledan]

I would keep Babylon with indirect fire. If anything, this proposal makes that free promotion even more special for them. They could still get the mobility from XP if they wanted.

overall, I don't actually think this is a good idea. I think you risk moving in on the mounted ranged line's niche. Archers are for dealing damage at range; their promotions should focus on doing that; not turning them into fast-attack units.

 

[ma_kuh]

This is the first of this series of proposals/counterproposals that I actually like. I think the promotion trees are in need a more general overhaul in structure (but not power or significant number tweaks). Honing Siege as a choice of Indirect Fire or Range, and Archers as Mobility or Range is how I'd like the combat roles to fall.

As for archers moving into mounted ranged's niche, I think having an alternative, non-horse reliant way to field fast ranged units is good to me. It's definitely concerning to be able to combine Mobility and Range at the same time though... part of why I want to silo some of the "super-promotions" a little bit more. (For example, a T4 unit currently gets Range, but a T5 gets Range + Indirect Fire/Mobility; I would structure the tree so you need to be T7 or T8 to get both, having gone through a different stem).

 

[youngsteve]

I was not aware Babylon had something like that. But after a bit of consideration I think it is best to change the bowman's Indirect Fire to Mobility. Having an archery unit that can move 3 right away sounds pretty good to me. It won't diminish Incas and Iroquois because: a) You first need to earn the promotion. b) You can opt to take another promotion in it's stead. c) This will allow them to potentially have some very fast archery units. d) The other units are unchanged in this regard.

I disagree. Babylon is a defensive civ, & the bowman with the walls makes it harder to take down its cities. By changing its indirect fire to more mobility, would mean the unit advancing forward instead of staying back, meaning its chance of getting destroyed are alot higher. This is a problem, particularly for CS, who charge all their units forward, get destroyed, & have no one left to defend their cities.

To DeAnno. For a human player playing Babylon I agree they are very strong, but the AI playing Babylon is quite weak.

 

[Little Billy]

Combining mobility with logistics on the archer line seems like you would be able to get archer-skirmishers that are better than normal skirmishers in almost every way

 

[Stalker0]

The community has spoken loudly and repeatedly on this topic, they like their super strong promotions. This just replaces a strong promotion with a weaker one.

 

[GeneralAmadeus]

Honestly this would work a lot better if we got rid of Logistics (ranged units attack twice). That would make sure skirmishers keep their role and archery units keep theirs. I did have at some point an idea just removing Indirect Fire from archery units and replacing Logistics with something like +1 move and +20% CS. Problem is I think it's to late in the congress for such a proposal. Logistics a the moment is not just good but too good. While for siege units range is my preferred route (partially beacause of the bonus against cities) any other ranged unit heads for logistics.

 

[azum4roll]

Honestly this would work a lot better if we got rid of Logistics (ranged units attack twice).

Good luck pushing that. People don't even want the double xp removed from it. Or weaken the promotion in any way.

 

[DImensiondog]

I’ll sponsor this

 

[Recursive]

Proposal sponsored by DImensiondog.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal vetoed.

Reason: Rationale not specified.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.