I am not 100% sure but it seems that there is no definitive treshold, it is based on current "danger". Basically AI tries to put units in safest location and calculates "danger" for a unit. 30-40 damage from a hit is reasonable, so it would force AI to withdraw such unit. But if AI will perceive that a unit is in a safe attack position, it will shoot even with 1 HP thus destroying itself. It is however rare scenario since low-health units are always prime targets for enemy, thus making them "in danger".
3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
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I was the one who suggested the Slaganz, and, since the beginning, I wanted this UM for Germany for three reasons :
- I wanted a second Warrior replacement
- I wanted a way for Germany to be able to use its UA in a consistent way before the mid-game
- I wanted a reference to the German vanilla UA
We had to choose between two UM2 for Germany : the Slaganz and the Jaeger. In the end, we dismissed the Jaeger because :
- We already have a lot of Musketmen replacements
- Among the UMs we could choose from for Portugal, only the Cacadores seemed interesting, and this unit fills the same archetype as the Jaeger (elite light infantry), so we decided to give the advantages the Jaeger has in the JFD mod to the Cacadores.
Knowing these things, here are my justifications for the idea pineappledan and I were supporting :
- The current version of VP only allows unit giving to CSs if they have less than five units : because of this, the first mechanic we talked about, which was capturing barbarians to give them to CS, has become inconsistent (so it would be a waste to make this mechanic the main attribute of the UM).
- Moreover, it has been proven that it is impossible to give a promotion only to units captured by the Slaganz : this means that the barbarians units captured would only bring 5 influence if given to a CS (which is useless, since there will be a cap at 5 units => you can't even become friend with a CSs by giving units)
- Because of this, since barbarians units won't be given, they'll only be used for conquest/defense, which is exactly what the Hunnic UA already does (75 % to have 1 free barbarian unit each time you capture a barbarian camp ; chance to capture a unit when killing with a melee cav).
- Hence the idea by pineappledan and I to use an alternative method to obtain influence with CS through the killing of barbarians : the creation of units with the "diplomatic mission" action.
For the "modification of the UA" part, I wasn't convinced either, since I really think that the Oathsworn is the best solution.
I don't understand why you're resisting this much, @Blue Ghost (sorry to say this...).
I have several problems with the Chevau-Léger :
- The version JFD and Janboruta took inspiration of (in terms of model, picture and attributes) is the Polish Chevau-légers, and it was an "implicit" rule that we should avoid taking mercenary/foreign regiments as UM (although we already made exceptions for the Corsair and the Qizilbash ; maybe the Hakkapeliitta, but Finland was part of Sweden during this period).
- The Chevau-léger, as you said, will come during the same era as the Musketeer (and France is already really powerful during this era)
- The similarities between the Swedish and the French UCs will become even more blatant (UA centered around combat bonus ; 1 melee gun unit replacement, 1 lancer replacement, 1 Public School replacement)
There are lots of units that could be used by the French as UM2, but each solution brings its amount of problems :
- The Francisca (from Francia) as a Swordman replacement => it is as Germanic/German as it is French
- The Paladin (idem) as a GGeneral replacement : same problem (although the Paladins have become much more prominent figures in French cultures thanks to the Matter of France
- The Gendarme (early idea I had for the French UM2) as a Knight replacement => we already have so much Knight replacements, and we have no picture, or flag, or model for this unit
- The Chevau-Léger => See above
- The Zouave as a Riflemen or Gatling gun replacement (from Napoleon III France) => France already has a unique melee gun unit, it is a "foreign/colonial regiment", and it fills the same archetype as the Cacadores/Jaeger.
- The Soixante-Quinze as a Field Gun replacement => as pineappledan pointed out, the current Field gun is the French Soixante-Quinze...
- The Grande Batterie (Grand Battery) as a Canon replacement => we don't have any picture/flag/model for this unit
- The Renault FT as a Light Tank replacement => The current Light Tank is the Renault FT, and it is quite the late UM (nb : if we want this UM, we could use this picture, which is better than the one use in VP)
- The Char B1 (from Charles de Gaulle France) as a Tank replacement => very late unit, and Germany already has one tank replacement
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@Infixo, @pineappledan Even if unit would fire at <20 HP, cannot that be treated as sacrifice for better good? AI player will probably capture city at cost of 1 orf 2 bombards. I wouldn't change anything. Unit role is doing a big hole in the wall (and die if that's necessary).
@Infixo I used Mod user data 2 times:
@Infixo I used Mod user data 2 times:
- 1st in Latifundium we talked about
- I cannot see the way we could take off that thing
- 2nd In Holkan.
- I think second can be done without it but for that I would need game event that triggers once on goody hut. The problem with current GameEvents.GoodyHutCanNotReceive.Add( is that it triggers X times on entering goody hut where X is number of goody huts left on the map. Maybe small tweak to existing event from you could heal that ability form ModUserData?
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Blue Ghost
King
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- Sep 5, 2016
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I’ve already explained.
1) The complexity cost is too high.
2) The Oathsworn does not achieve what you want.
You cannot reliably get even a friendship with a city-state through dribbles of 10 influence from barbarians. Even if we make the Oathsworn a thing, the primary purpose of the Slaganz will still be filling out your early army, with the influence a barely noticeable side benefit. It is not worth the complexity to add something so inconsequential.
Guys, I will interfere here. I have an idea how to make both sides happy. I can see that Slaganz is just Barbarian Slayer. I like the idea and it returns Germany from Vanilla and I'm with @Blue Ghost on this. Ok. Second side wants to make complicated promotions to boost Diplomacy Influence on city states. Why not merge that and make Slaganz as it is, but add +5 Influence to all known CS on conversion (there will be not great amount of discovered CS on that game stage). It would be natural for AI (no active ability) and easy to use. This would need finding way to add Influence from lua. @Infixo, is it possible? Can you help?
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pineappledan
Deity
If it were to give 5 influence on conversion, I would make it only the closest CS, not all CS discovered. This would be particularly beneficial during those barbarian horde CS events, but if it were to give influence to all, one of those CS events would yield enough influence that you could shut most players out for the remainder of the game.
My intention for the oathsworn was not to make it a means of friending/allying civs from nothing, but as a way of making barbarian hunting and quests, your main source of early influence, even more profitable. Oathsworn wouldn't be a way of making allies, but more a way of maintaining allies, or further augmenting the barbarian quests which CSs hand out.
a) Huns hunt barbs for military power
b) Austria hunts barbs for diplomacy
c) Aztecs hunt barbs for yields & infrastructure
d) Celts hunt barbs for pantheon
Germany hunts barbs for a little of columns a & b
Either the oathsworn idea or @adan_eslavo's influence on conversion idea would be particularly relevant for those CS barbarian horde quests; and make germany profit 2x as much from those events than a normal civ.
@Hinin you're absolutely right. the Chevau Leger is far too similar to Sweden. bad idea.
I'm not really sure how Corsairs are not Morroccan in your example. Many of the pirates were Moroccans, but not necessarily all. And yeah, the most famous corsair (Barbarossa) was a Greek Muslim convert. I don't think it's fair to say that Corsairs weren't Moroccan though, just maybe not exclusively Moroccan.
btw there IS a Gendarme icon and unit model. The mod wiki doesn't include this mod by Teddyk
Only if you interpret "what I want" to mean an effective early diplomatic unit.
My intention for the oathsworn was not to make it a means of friending/allying civs from nothing, but as a way of making barbarian hunting and quests, your main source of early influence, even more profitable. Oathsworn wouldn't be a way of making allies, but more a way of maintaining allies, or further augmenting the barbarian quests which CSs hand out.
a) Huns hunt barbs for military power
b) Austria hunts barbs for diplomacy
c) Aztecs hunt barbs for yields & infrastructure
d) Celts hunt barbs for pantheon
Germany hunts barbs for a little of columns a & b
Either the oathsworn idea or @adan_eslavo's influence on conversion idea would be particularly relevant for those CS barbarian horde quests; and make germany profit 2x as much from those events than a normal civ.
@Hinin you're absolutely right. the Chevau Leger is far too similar to Sweden. bad idea.
I'm not really sure how Corsairs are not Morroccan in your example. Many of the pirates were Moroccans, but not necessarily all. And yeah, the most famous corsair (Barbarossa) was a Greek Muslim convert. I don't think it's fair to say that Corsairs weren't Moroccan though, just maybe not exclusively Moroccan.
btw there IS a Gendarme icon and unit model. The mod wiki doesn't include this mod by Teddyk
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v25.14 on github. I added OnCityCapture effect to Pogost. Fixed few things in Tophet. Updated Maya.
I think this would be the best solution if we go this way : moreover, you can still give a few converted units to a CS if you are in need of even more influence points (the two elements combined could bring a respectable amount of influence points, necessary to keep CS alliances )
Some aspects of Morocco are specific to the country, and others, like the Corsair, to the entire Maghreb region (in fact, Morocco had only a minor involvement with these pirates ; Alger, Tripoli or Tunis were much more important ports for them), but I see your point (another example could be the French Foreign Legion : a lot of members are born French, but they are considered a "foreign regiment", as were the Zouaves at one point).
I forgot about it... What do you think about the Gendarme as a unique unit ? I remember that, in my original thread, there was some opposition to it : some of the ideas for the unit were to make it stronger when garrisonned (reference to how it became a security force after the Revolution) or to give the unit an equivalent to the "Crouching Tiger" promotion (I think the name of the promotion was "Juggernaut"), so that the unit become stronger for each MP it has before attacking.
NB : I tested the SPAD S.VII. The attacks of the unit trigger the Esprit de Corps effect well.
pineappledan
Deity
I think medieval is overstuffed; there are more UCs in medieval than any other era. I think knights are the worst offender, so that kills my excitement for any such proposal
this further kills my desire for a switch, if esprit de corps works on fighters then that makes air units more potent for France than any other civ. French air superiority effectively doubles as a damage amplifier to any unit within 7 hexes of a French city.
If people were particularly interested in UA synergy then maybe we could swap the range and quick study promotions on SPAD for the 2 attacks per turn promotion (I forget the name)? Imperialism finisher gives the range promotion anyways
Latifundium. Like I said - make the spacing of 2 between them and work on adjacent tiles only. The code will be much, much simpler and no need for ModUserData. As a side note: imo the Latifundium already creates too many new resources.
Holkan.This event GAMEEVENT_GoodyHutCanNotReceive is actually a testing event. It is called to check if a particular Goody Hut can be "taken" by a unit. There is a Define PROMOTION_GOODY_HUT_PICKER = 194 that points to a promotion that allows for Goody Huts (actually PROMOTION_GOODY_HUT_PICKER). Then it calls for an event to check other conditions. Problem is - there is no actual event for receiving goody. So, I can add an event for that - it will be triggered only when goody hut is actually "consumed".
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Don't change anything. AI should be able to handle this in most cases. And if not and people will start complaining - then we will change it.
@Infixo It would be good to make that additional event.
With Latifundium I mentioned you before that setting adjacent restriction (1-tile, 2-tile) will be problematic. In tiles between latifundium we will not be able to place plantation nor latifundium because I restricted plantation. AI does stupid moves and builds plantation over latifundium and lat over plantation all the time infinitely.
We would need to rework it completely to unlock again plantation or I don't know.
With Latifundium I mentioned you before that setting adjacent restriction (1-tile, 2-tile) will be problematic. In tiles between latifundium we will not be able to place plantation nor latifundium because I restricted plantation. AI does stupid moves and builds plantation over latifundium and lat over plantation all the time infinitely.
We would need to rework it completely to unlock again plantation or I don't know.
Blue Ghost
King
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2016
- Messages
- 710
Giving influence on killing barbarians would be a more elegant solution for the Slaganz, yes. I’m still skeptical about how much it would actually matter, but the complexity cost is much lower, so I’d be willing to try it out.
Any thoughts on adding +10 influence from gifts to the Teutonic Order?
Any thoughts on adding +10 influence from gifts to the Teutonic Order?
pineappledan
Deity
Fun little tidbit, but these guns blowing themselves up is actually very historically relevant.
The original Turkish bombards were made by a Hungarian gunfounder named Orban. Each of his bronze guns required 5-10 kilograms of black powder, and cooling them required as much as 12 hours. Olive oil was poured over the cannons to help them cool more evenly and reduce the risk of warping and cracking.
These massive cannons broke frequently, and exploded on their operators just as frequently. Orban himself was killed during the siege of Constantinople by one of his own cannons blowing up and killing everyone nearby.
With the serious nerf to CS gifting which was recently implemented (can't gift if CS has 5+ units), I don't see people taking advantage or much caring for such a feature. I also think it risks having the building look unfocused. The TO is primarily focused on giving unique promotions to all German land units, and a bit of faith/conversion flair. Adding diplomacy to that might look schizophrenic
Lastly, the Teutonic order, by all accounts, seems to have been composed of xenophobic, genocidal pricks. Giving their order a diplomatic boost seems almost comical, considering the kind of burning hatred they earned from Lithuanian, Estonian, Polish, and even some Catholic societies.
If there is still "room" on the wonder, as you say, I think it would be best spent enhancing the military features already discussed.
Germany's been talked about so much now, with so many different ideas thrown around I am having trouble keeping track of what has stuck. Is this accurate? please correct what I am getting wrong.
Germany:
Spoiler :
Influence with nearest City State)
Science (up from +1 culture)Comments regarding the TO:
- Should we swap the science for 2-3
faith on the base wonder instead? There's no other science on this building and it looks out of place. - With the addition of that
Production scaler to the base Heroic epic, would it be more appropriate to enhance that scaler instead of giving more 
culture? ie. we could increase the per 
to 40% (2/5), and reduce back down to +1. - Since it is being moved back to chivalry, should we even touch the barracks requirement? It seems pointless to remove, especially since the building's main effects require a barracks in the city to work.
- "+2 Faith,
+5 Defense and 50HP to all cities in empire with a Barracks" - As per our earlier discussion regarding how it is impossible to modify buildings with extra defense/HP, this syntax seems like the best way to word this. - Is that the agreed upon Crusader promotion? I think it looks good like that, but I'm no longer sure what the plan is
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FoxOfWar
Prince
Okay, my mistake on SPAD S. VII on that part then. Still not a unit I am super-fond of, but if it's really the only one I can think of that I don't like atm, we're probably onto something. (I seriously just need to play with more lategame air anyway...)
Germany's units I won't comment as I frankly forget half the the time the civ exists in the first place, probably owing to the very-lateness of Panzer in part.
Germany's units I won't comment as I frankly forget half the the time the civ exists in the first place, probably owing to the very-lateness of Panzer in part.
AI is building a plantation over existing improvement? I don't think it should, maybe there is a problem with sql definition.
But in general what is the idea behind latifundium?
Wow, seems that there is no Lua for that. The only one I found is pPlayer:GetMinorCivFriendshipLevelWithMajor(ePlayer) and it only returns 1 for Friends and 2 for Allies. I will see if it would be easy to add such a method.
Comments regarding the TO:
- Should we swap the science for 2-3
- With the addition of that
- Since it is being moved back to chivalry, should we even touch the barracks requirement? It seems pointless to remove, especially since the building's main effects require a barracks in the city to work.
- "+2
- Is that the agreed upon Crusader promotion? I think it looks good like that, but I'm no longer sure what the plan is
- I think that we should do the swap : the Teutonic Order wasn't famous for the knowledge of its clercs, nor for its progressive views. Blood and Iron !
- I agree
- I agree
- I agree
- There was different solutions : the idea to kill all populations not following your religion (so that the total world population is lowered, and you can reform your religion faster) ; the idea to have a "faith when attacking cities" mechanic (similar to what Denmark has) ; the idea to you just expressed, and maybe others... All I can say is that we wanted to make sure the promotion obtained thks to the TO doesn't become too much when combined with the "Morale" promotion. This is why I think we should take away the combat bonus of the "Crusader"/"Chapter" promotion (I'm more for "Chapter", since there is already a "Crusader Spirit" reformation belief, which is about combat bonus in foreign territory), and concentrate ourselves on the religious bonus when conquering (I think a combination of one of the two "effects on conquest" with the "faith from attacking cities" could do the job).
More reasons to have the ultra-early Slaganz for Germany : it rebalances things.
pineappledan
Deity
Not just latifundium. Any improvement which can improve a luxury resource in addition to the standard improvement causes AI to engage in a loop of swapping between those two improvements.
This is what forced us to abandon marble as a possible tile for Ethiopian monolithic churches. In Ethiopia's case, however, marble is rare, does not appear concentrated on one place in the map, and removing it as an acceptable prerequisite tile had minimal game impact, since its other possible tile requirement, unfeatured hills, are much more common. The latifundium, on the other hand, can be placed only on features which could otherwise be improved by plantations or farms. In the case of farms this causes no issues since the only farmable resource, wheat, is a bonus resource, so it doesn't screw the AI. Luxury resources, however, are the main source of plantations in the game.
Coulda woulda shoulda. This is what the AI does. We aren't AI engineers, so Adan made the latifundium give no reason to ever want a plantation instead, and then took away the AI's nice things because they were a choking hazard.
Latifundium is designed to roughly be a plantation replacement. It gives slightly better yields than a plantation and builds an actual plantation beside itself. This second plantation allows Rome to enjoy the possible benefits of plantations (eg. pantheons) while not having actually built plantations.
This number of latifundia to plantations has to be roughly 1:1 or else we have sunk a perfectly good pantheon belief.
Because of the on-luxury improvements given by various buildings (market, Arena, Gocer, etc.) The latifundia is probably the single best UI in the game. However, it also has one of the least common, situational prerequisites: plantation and farm resources. Latifundium is probably second only to the Kasbah, but the Kasbah has great utility features in addition to its strong yields, and you are always guaranteed to be able to build them next to each city. Latifundia, on the other hand, could mean getting 7 in one city and none in another. If you spawn in a spot with mined/quarried luxuries then it's bananas and wheat only for you
Whereas other luxury-dependent UIs like Chateau can be built in 3 places around a luxury, and can help develop marginal terrain around a city, the latifundium can only be built once per resource, and ends up with a sort of big bath, with very high tile values in just a few places.
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Added GoodyHutReceivedBonus event. Works perfectly. iX,iY are coordinates of the Hut. eGoody is ID from table GoodyHuts.
Code:
-- GoodyHutReceivedBonus
function OnGoodyHutReceivedBonus(iPlayer, iUnit, eGoody, iX, iY)
dprint("OnGoodyHutReceivedBonus", iPlayer, iUnit, eGoody, iX, iY)
end
GameEvents.GoodyHutReceivedBonus.Add(OnGoodyHutReceivedBonus)- Status
