3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[Ziad]

Maybe force latifundium near a luxury resource, and then limit it to only 1 per luxury resource.

Can then balance accordingly.

A way to do it if it isn't implemented is to use the luxury tile itself and check to see if the surrounding tiles have latifundium. Only allow 1 ever.

 

[pineappledan]

The latifundium is 1 hex. The figs plantation is 1 hex. Together they are 2 hexes, but functionally form a single UI.

One portion of that UI is essentially the plantation you would have had on that resource anyways, the second portion is a slightly better version of a plantation

 

[adan_eslavo]

Instant fig spawn does not resolve the moduserdata problem. Player can always build latifundium (with figs next to it), then destroy it (figs stay) and build again latifundium (spawn another figs). Is it possible to build something over latifundium? Because worker cannot just destroy it, right?

I suggest this: The thing which for sure fix all problems is setting latifundium's permanent parameter. We can then set adjacent restriction (cannot be build next to each other), bring back plantation (worker cannot build it over permanent latifundium). You will have less latifundiums, less figs, no human exploit is possible. The only downside is that you cannot pillage that tile (but you can pillage plantation on figs itself). Overall design is almost unchanged (I tested such build at the beginning of my work over that UI. It worked well. It would require only some tweaks to lua and sql.

I thought also about substituting onturn event with onimprovementchange where old one is latifundium and new one its upgraded version. This would trigger only once for each latifundium and would not require each turn checking.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I made changes to Latifundium, but...

• couldn't place fig icon into notification about tile claiming,
• @Infixo do you know some other way to add 10-turn counter for latifundium (after which figs will spawn)? For now I met (old) problem I forgot about. When latifundium upgrades into this second tier (after 10 turns) it is not counted to adjacent restriction anymore. So worker can build another latifundium right next to it (there will be LATIFUNDIUM and LATIFUNDIUM_UPGRADED next to each other). I tried to make Latifundium to upgrade to the same improvement but it doesn't work. Same wth setting Latifundium --> (10 turns) L. upgraded --> (0 turns) Latifundium.

So we have two options:

• find another way to add some counter
• totally resign from counter and spawn figs immediately. We can make build time for latifundium a bit longer then.

I simplify a lot code for latifundium. Text for notifications need rework probably.

 

[pineappledan]

wouldn't it be easier to put the turn counter on the figs, and have the figs change, since they don't have to deal with adjacency issues?

So latifundium is built, it immediately spawns a fig placeholder on an adjacent tile.
Wait 10 turns, and that fig placeholder improves into fig plantation.
When fig is upgraded, it claims the tile it is on for Rome
Latifundium is unchanged, so their adjacencies still work normally, and since figs don't have any adjacency limitations, it doesn't matter what stage they are in.

This would mean that figs occupy a tile for 10 turns with no yields on them. you could use the art for the torn-up ground that is underneath the normal plantation as a placeholder tile. It would imply that the ground has been planted, but the figs haven't sprouted yet

Possible funny bug:
Roman latifundium is built, fig placeholder spawns
City is captured by enemy, latifundium is now in enemy territory
Figs spawn, still gives territory to Rome
This would be incredibly funny to me, so I would just tell people it is a feature. The only fix for this I can think of is if the tile claim happened immediately on latifundium's construction completion instead of at the fig upgrading

 

[adan_eslavo]

I made fig spawn possible only if latifundium is on Roman territory.
I will try your idea.

 

[pineappledan]

precisely. So it could work in a very similar manner to the brazilwood camp. The improvement is built and a resource spawns under it.

If the base resource existed immediately, then that would not work as intended because the tile would be worth more purely because of the bonus resource. The bonus resource should only appear once the final, improved tile is complete

 

[adan_eslavo]

What if other nation wants to make a farm on a tile where placeholder is? It will block that tile for him for few turns. I wil just delete adjacent restriction and see how it performs. It will be easier and faster. Then we can think about some small yield nerf instead of rebuilding improvament from scratch.

 

[FoxOfWar]

While this is just anecdotal evidence of just one game...

Iron Chariot feels very, very strong atm. I am warring with Assyria playing as Celts - who don't exactly have a shortage of power around Classical either - and I am getting trounced by endless barrage of Iron Chariots that don't seem to take a hit at all. That 13 CP is very deceptive when they in practice have quite a bit more to it, heh. As it is, these things hammer on formations of War Elephants, Pictish Warriors and Scythed Chariots - and come out on top.

I like the idea of being able to build them without strategics and getting stronger with them, but maybe the numbers of the both the buffs (Fury of Nergal & Fast and Hard) could take a slight nerf. Or just axing that Shock I promotion, which is just cherry on the cake.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I will set half values for nergal (10-->5 etc.). Strategic resources add only 2CP x2 so it is not so much.

 

[pineappledan]

Oh shoot, they have shock I by default? yeah that should be axed. I think that was a placeholder before fast & Hard was implemented

 

[Blue Ghost]

Yeah, Shock can definitely be removed. Fury of Nergal can use a small nerf too, I suppose.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I halved values on fury of the nergal. Shock will stay.

 

[pineappledan]

What if other nation wants to make a farm on a tile where placeholder is? It will block that tile for him for few turns. I wil just delete adjacent restriction and see how it performs. It will be easier and faster. Then we can think about some small yield nerf instead of rebuilding improvament from scratch.

The placeholder would be an improvement, so couldn't another civ, if they are attentive, remove that improvement? Then the figs would not spawn. This would give attentive players a way of preventing Rome from stealing their territory.

dropping shock I and 7% on fury of nergal instead of 10 would probably do the trick. I think that the shock, since it is not a uique promotion, should be dropped if it helps keep nergal potent. at 5% per adjacent unit, it does a very poor job of neutralizing flanking bonuses, which is its main point

 

[FoxOfWar]

Yeah, I'm not asking for a big hammering. Either Fury of Nergal at 5%, or 7% and dropping Shock I does probably just fine.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I don't think AI would understand that. They would see an improvement as and improvement not a danger.

 

[pineappledan]

I don't think AI would understand that. They would see an improvement as and improvement not a danger.

No I don't think they would. And I doubt humans would be attentive enough to catch and remove those temporary tiles.
I don't actually see much of a problem with the tile being claimed immediately after the latifundium is built though. It might make more sense historically if it was claimed immediately anyways

1. Latifundium built
2. fig placeholder tile spawns immediately, and claims tile it is on for rome
3. After 10 turns, fig placeholder improvement is replaced by fig plantation improvement & fig resource spawns underneath

• If Fig placeholder tile is not on Roman territory after 10 turns (land is stolen or city is captured), then Fig placeholder does not change into plantation. Fig placeholder checks if land is roman after 10 turns, if not, then nothing happens
• If Rome recaptures land, and fig placeholder has not been removed, then turns until improvement starts again (10 turns must elapse for improvement to change)

Another reason why shock should be dropped: 3 promotions starting on a horseman is a lot, buffing nergal slightly and removing shock reduces complexity. The Iron chariot has 2 unique promotions; adding a third, standard promotion is unnecessary, and detracts from the truly unique things

 

[FoxOfWar]

Oh yeah, and on a different note: Celts' uniques seem to be fine. Scythed Chariot is fun to toy with to your advantage.

 

[adan_eslavo]

With that fig spawn after retaking land by rome will be problem, because sql qon't wait for that to happen and upgrade placeholder to plantation even if it will be not on roman territory. There will be then no event to check (we would need to scan every roman tile for plantation without a resource).

 

[pineappledan]

With that fig spawn after retaking land by rome will be problem, because sql qon't wait for that to happen and upgrade placeholder to plantation even if it will be not on roman territory. There will be then no event to check (we would need to scan every roman tile for plantation without a resource).

In regard to what happens if a 10-turn fig placeholder is captured/stolen, I don't care. It's an edge case which matters very little to anyone, and will in no way affect strategy unless it somehow becomes open for abuse.

It could not upgrade unless on Roman terrain, but then you have to decide what happens if it flips BACK to Roman.

• The 10 turn count restarts (complicated)
• It picks up where it left off with its turn count (as long as it has existed in Roman territory for 10 turns it will upgrade)
• the Fig placeholder is immediately removed when Rome loses the territory. No figs for you, under any condition.

Or, it could upgrade after 10 turns regardless of who owns it and where it is.

I think any of those three options is just find-and-dandy, we just need to say which one it is. I think that whatever is easiest to code is probably the best.

You wanted to make it so Fig doesn't spawn if the latifundium has been taken. I'm trying to resolve how that might work, but honestly I think making a mechanic that depends on tile ownership is causing way more problems than it fixes. I think that just going for a straight 10 turn timer, the placeholder upgrades to a plantation and doesn't give a rip where it is or who owns it is looking like the elegant solution.

Edit: or no timer at all! and have the plantation and figs spawn immediately on completion of a long and arduous 15-20 turn construction time on a latifundium.

We backed away from the long build time suggestion because it seemed unnecessary when we all agreed that fig spawning should have a delay. If the Fig spawning happens immediately then I think a long build time for latifundia is perfectly appropriate. It is analogous to a single worker building 2 hexes of improvements instead of 1.

These are all fine suggestions.