3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[De_Genius]

I would like to sign up for The Netherlands.
I think they are a little more challenging than the Danish, but I will give it my best

These are the descriptions from the original post:

UM - Goedendag (replaces Pikeman) : decreased production/gold cost (115 instead of 135 ; decreased gold cost by 20 %) ; 16 CP instead of 15 ; has the "Unusual weapon" (+30 % CS against non-mounted units) and the "Brutal force" (+33 % against barbarians) promotions.

UB - Waag (replaces Bank) : available at Civil Service instead of Banking ; decreased production/gold cost (350 instead of 500) ; +5 CP and +50 HP in city ; 2 Merchant specialists instead of 1 ; -25 % spy steal rate in city ; +4 at Radio.

I assume that these are still what we are going with ?

The only thing I do not quite know how to do is the "Unusual weapon" promotion, since I do not recall seeing the "CS against non-mounted unit" promotion on anything else. Is there any existing promotion I can look at or is it an entirely new kind of promotion ?

 

[pineappledan]

Pikemen replacements are tricky because longswords are 25% stronger. Removing the anti-cavalry effect doesn’t seem to mesh with the history of the weapon, seems they were used in conjunction with longer pikes and spears to finish off horses and kill the dismounted rider. In that sense you could make them longsword replacements if you wanted to preserve that “combo meal flavour”.

The weapon was used almost exclusively by Flemish militia and burgers. Halberds and pikes were considerably more expensive and harder to make, so making them cheaper seems like a reasonable move.

Adding promotions is actually very easy to do with XML or lua. You can assign a free promotion to any unit, then you can define the special attributes of that promotion.

For the waag, I’ll have to do more reading, but I don’t really get the impression that a weigh house has anything to do with espionage or city defense. The old Amsterdam weigh house was built into the old city gate and walls, but that seems to be an exception, not the rule. The buildings were placed adjacent to wherever the market was.

Lowering crime and poverty seems fitting. You could even reduce religious unrest based on their apparent use in weighing witches. That is if you have any ducks on hand.

 

[Hinin]

UB - Grande Ecole (replaces Public School) : +5 Science, +1 Culture, +3 Production. 2 Scientist Specialist. +1 GSP. +1 Science and +1 Production for every 2 Citizens in the City. +3 for local Scientist Specialist and +3 Science for Engineers. Reduces more Illiteracy (-50%). Allows Archaeologists to be built in this city. +2 and +2 at Computers.

I like it a lot more now, but we'll have to see how it feels during playtests. Thank you adan_eslavo and sorry for having made you work more.

finished up the code and icon now, so here is the final version.

I looked at it ingame (without really testing it, I unfortunately don't have time for this), and the concept and the stats seem pretty nice. I'll see if everything is still alright in situation this evening.

Pikemen replacements are tricky because longswords are 25% stronger. Removing the anti-cavalry effect doesn’t seem to mesh with the history of the weapon, seems they were used in conjunction with longer pikes and spears to finish off horses and kill the dismounted rider. In that sense you could make them longsword replacements if you wanted to preserve that “combo meal flavour”.

The weapon was used almost exclusively by Flemish militia and burgers. Halberds and pikes were considerably more expensive and harder to make, so making them cheaper seems like a reasonable move.

A replacement for the Longswordman which doesn't use Iron, is cheaper, a bit less powerful but with a bonus against mounted ? It would be interesting, but I feel it would be simpler to make a stronger and cheaper version of the Pikeman instead. Do you have any more idea (maybe about the conjonction of goedendag and pikes during combat) ?

 

[adan_eslavo]

I like it a lot more now, but we'll have to see how it feels during playtests. Thank you adan_eslavo and sorry for having made you work more.

Actually I have already created this UB and it costed me only 1 minute to change the values, so don't worry. Almost every suggestion is good. If it is bad I will tell you for sure. :]

 

[De_Genius]

Regarding the Goedendag perhaps give them a promotion providing "+X% against mounted units" to all adjacent units, which flavours with their use as a second rank unit in history ?
The "Brutal force" promotion seems a bit too situational for me, and even the anti-mounted units will disappear in usefulness when getting the modern age.
Perhaps the adjacent promotion could also provide some generic CS.

UU - Goedendag (replaces Pikeman) : decreased production/gold cost (115 instead of 135 ; decreased gold cost by 20 %) ; 16 CP instead of 15 ; has the "Unusual weapon" (+20 % CS against mounted units and +10% CS to all adjacent units) + the normal +30% against mounted units.

Regarding the Waag, I too feel like the spy rate is a little off. I like the extra CP and HP and extra specialist slot. Since the Amsterdam Waag also housed guilds, perhaps we could add +X% to Great Artist or to all GPs, since it also housed public dissections.

UB - Waag (replaces Bank) : available at Civil Service instead of Banking ; +5 CP and +50 HP in city ; 2 Merchant specialists instead of 1 ; +10% to GPP + the usual bank stuff.

What do you guys think about this ?

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan Tooltips of Oppidum and Town (when hovering over GM's small icon just before building) are much different. There's no info about production cut forest and description of Oppidum is probably too big. Can you check this on your comp and tell me if this is how it should work? I think we should change this to be as close as possible to VP.
Screen:

 

[Jarula]

Why not give Netherlands waag +5% gp per exported or imported luxuxy? That would be Mac uba cool

And the grand ecole is too strong in comparison to skola

And seiously you guys think the Persia UB was op?

 

[Hinin]

Regarding the Goedendag perhaps give them a promotion providing "+X% against mounted units" to all adjacent units, which flavours with their use as a second rank unit in history ?
The "Brutal force" promotion seems a bit too situational for me, and even the anti-mounted units will disappear in usefulness when getting the modern age.
Perhaps the adjacent promotion could also provide some generic CS.
UU - Goedendag (replaces Pikeman) : decreased production/gold cost (115 instead of 135 ; decreased gold cost by 20 %) ; 16 CP instead of 15 ; has the "Unusual weapon" (+20 % CS against mounted units and +10% CS to all adjacent units) + the normal +30% against mounted units.
Regarding the Waag, I too feel like the spy rate is a little off. I like the extra CP and HP and extra specialist slot. Since the Amsterdam Waag also housed guilds, perhaps we could add +X% to Great Artist or to all GPs, since it also housed public dissections.
UB - Waag (replaces Bank) : available at Civil Service instead of Banking ; +5 CP and +50 HP in city ; 2 Merchant specialists instead of 1 ; +10% to GPP + the usual bank stuff.
What do you guys think about this ?

For the Goedendag, I think that, because the Fire Lancer won't be added as the Chinese UM2, we can use something similar (but with opposite effects) for the Goedendag : a Pikeman improving the anti-cavalry capability of nearby ally units (however, for my Ethiopian UM2, I talked about something similar too, and I don't really know what are your ideas for the Ethiopian UM2) but less effective itself against mounted units => a cheap and effective support Pikeman replacement. It's right to say that the bonus against cavalry will become obsolete at one point, but the Goedendag would still be an interesting unit coming relatively early in the game. The important part will be to find additionnal promotions to increase the utility of the unit (maybe "Medic I").

Why not give Netherlands waag +5% gp per exported or imported luxuxy? That would be Mac uba cool
And the grand ecole is too strong in comparison to skola

Waag : Not a bad idea. Balancing it would be the real deal.
GE : At the moment it is built, for a city of 30 citizen, the Skola will bring around 40 science with 2 citizens used for scientists specialist and 10 culture while costing 3 gold per turn.
For a same city of 30 citizen, the GE will bring 15 base production and science, plus 2 science per engineer and 2 production per scientist, so around 10 of each with 10 citizens used.
I thing the Skola is better on the short term, bringing a huge boost to science just at the beginning of the Industrial era. However, its power decrease in the next eras.
The GE is weaker in its yields and requires higher investment (in gold and citizens) to be efficient, but its power won't stop to grow with apparition of more specialists and the growth of cities in the endgame (plus it brings quite a lot of production to cities with a lot of food, like coastal cities with appropriate buildings).
I think time will tell if the GE is overpowered or not compared to the Skola, but it don't seem to me in theory.

 

[Jarula]

Wait the skola is 1 for 1?

 

[Hinin]

Wait the skola is 1 for 1?

Ja mein Freund : 1 für 1

 

[Jarula]

+3% per import
+2% per exported
That with other stats 2 merchants
Extra city hp and defense works.

 

[pineappledan]

@pineappledan Tooltips of Oppidum and Town (when hovering over GM's small icon just before building) are much different. There's no info about production cut forest and description of Oppidum is probably too big. Can you check this on your comp and tell me if this is how it should work? I think we should change this to be as close as possible to VP.
Screen:

I see the problem. Trouble is the oppidum’s bonuses need to be written somewhere. I can just say in the tooltip “increases yields of surrounding improvements” instead of listing them all, but I think the defense and 10hp on city need to stay.

I’m on vacation so work on this is not top priority, but I am currently working on the texts for Ethiopia, France, ottomans, etc

 

[Jarula]

Which civ is the vacation to lol... If it's not one done already maybe you can draw some inspiration ... Bad joke...

 

[pineappledan]

Maya, actually. So not such a bad idea actually, we need to figure out if we are happy with their UU. Right now it’s another spearman

 

[Jarula]

How about gP great ballplayer replacing scientist?

Enjoy Chicken itza and the pyramids and watch out if in Mexico be careful unless you're with a tour great people wonderful welcoming but LOTS of crime. Normally they are pretty "fair-ish" to tourists but be careful. Maybe that was just TJ but lots of Mexico can get pretty dangerous.

 

[pineappledan]

In Guatemala actually, so Tikal. Wanted to go see a Mayan ruin where they still let you climb the pyramids. Even more dangerous, haha, but we'll keep our heads up. thanks!

@adan_eslavo I simplified the text and brought it more in line with other VP improvements, but I haven't yet deleted the portion which lists the yield changes to other adjacent improvements (farms, mines, etc). That text is the only place in the mod that we explain the bonuses for the Oppidum, so dropping that part would mean people would have to go into the code to see what the bonuses are.

The text regarding forests being cleared is not something I wrote. Maybe the text boxes are calling a different text prompt for that? I'm not sure

 

[FoxOfWar]

Played a game with Polynesia.

Having two melee units that are at least for some time available in same time (Maori Warrior becomes available an era before Koa obsoletes) makes Koa's usage time rather short, given that neither unit uses strategic resources. If their abilities/promotions differed more (or if Koa's bleeding promotion stayed on upgrade for example), this would be different. Two uniques competing for basically the same army space feels awkward. ("Do I upgrade my Koa or just make some Maori Warriors?")

I would probably want to be looking for some other military UU for them. Mayhap an archer unit or dromon themed around protecting the home islands?

Fale Tele seems to be working - it's lacking all description text still, but seems to give culture on tech research(IIRC, it was small instant yields of culture at the same time in every city), was that the intent of it? It might also want a little bit of extra something to it, as it is feels rather weak.

...would it be actually be bad if it was simply a building that gave +1 to multiple yields? Like, +1 science/culture/gold/food/faith (or, say, baseline science/food, culture/gold/faith on citizen birth) on a building that early could be powerful in its' own right, and work with Polynesia's habit of expanding early and often. We don't have to reinvent the wheel for every unique here, just provide something that works nicely with the existing kit and is different from most other uniques in the game.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Having two melee units that are at least for some time available in same time (Maori Warrior becomes available an era before Koa obsoletes) makes Koa's usage time rather short, given that neither unit uses strategic resources. If their abilities/promotions differed more (or if Koa's bleeding promotion stayed on upgrade for example), this would be different. Two uniques competing for basically the same army space feels awkward. ("Do I upgrade my Koa or just make some Maori Warriors?")I would probably want to be looking for some other military UU for them. Mayhap an archer unit or dromon themed around protecting the home islands?

We had Tongiaki idea and art. If Koa is was a bad choice maybe we go back to it? I don't want to make Leiomano staying promotion because it is sticked historically to Koa's weapon. After upgrade it is no reason to have it more (It has Amthibious promotion which stays with him). Or instead, we can move Koa an earlier unit (but it would be another spearmen, maybe pathfinder after little modification?). For sure we need more discussion on this topic. Thank you for pointing it out.

Fale Tele seems to be working - it's lacking all description text(...)

Intended. I focus on overall code/art implementing/UC creating and @pineappledan is working on text and has more time to think everything out. When I was writing also text it took me much time I could spend on coding and early testing (which is really time consuming).

(...)still, but seems to give culture on tech research(IIRC, it was small instant yields of culture at the same time in every city), was that the intent of it? It might also want a little bit of extra something to it, as it is feels rather weak.

First thought was "50% Culture as and instant yield income after technology is discovered". It is difficult to code so for now I modified it a bit. Second thing that indended to be put into the Fale Tele was "1 movement spent while embark/disembark in the city where it is built". Again difficult of not impossible to code. I asked few times but no one had an idea how to do it so we need to rethink Fale Tele again from scratch in my opinion.

...would it be actually be bad if it was simply a building that gave +1 to multiple yields? Like, +1 science/culture/gold/food/faith (or, say, baseline science/food, culture/gold/faith on citizen birth) on a building that early could be powerful in its' own right, and work with Polynesia's habit of expanding early and often. We don't have to reinvent the wheel for every unique here, just provide something that works nicely with the existing kit and is different from most other uniques in the game.

Could you make an example Fale Tele build using your idea (I mean first concept with example numbers). Maybe it will work. Let's see.

Anyways, thank you for testing. We need this for every civ created. I encourage you to play some games and tell what's wrong with all the stuff. When I code I have barely time to check balance things. With your suggestions, balancing is sometimes matter of minutes. Let's keep this project running!

I have ready rest of civs. I will post it tomorrow probably and in next update put all the text from @pineappledan to it with some balance updates. I need also to think about next civs to code. Look there to check what stuff is preapred and what it contains.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Some possible takes on Fale Tele:
- same production/gold and tech [The Wheel] as the base one, bonus yields scaling with era like the base council
- science as base yield is probably a thing we want to keep, others can be shuffled around per balance and what 'feels right'
- the source of extra yield can also be plenty of triggers, though probably one that happens with some regularity in a new city
- it's better to veer on the side of op than useless, as always

1.) +1 science, +1 culture
+5 faith, gold, food when a citizen is born

2.) +1 science, +1 food
+5 faith, culture, gold when city constructs a building

3.) +1 science, +1 faith
+5 culture, gold, production when city expands its' borders

4.) +1 science, +1 culture, +1 faith, +1 gold, +1 food. No other bonus, just early strong yields. This one I would be the most careful with, as it has some scary jumpstart potential.

Thoughts?

 

[Hinin]

Anyways, thank you for testing. We need this for every civ created. I encourage you to play some games and tell what's wrong with all the stuff. When I code I have barely time to check balance things. With your suggestions, balancing is sometimes matter of minutes. Let's keep this project running! I have ready rest of civs. I will post it tomorrow probably and in next update put all the text from @pineappledan to it with some balance updates. I need also to think about next civs to code.

I'm currently doing a game with ten civs with 4 UC : I'm playing as Denmark, with America, Iroquois, Shoshones, Russia, Mongolia, Ottoman, Greece, Celts and Poland (I'm playing on difficulty 6, communitas map, epic speed). We've just begun entering the Renaissance era, and some things can already be said :

- the Tug banner warrior is really a fearsome unit => Mongolia is a weakening but still dominating power, and it's combination of heavy skirmishers and TBW is quite destructive ; fortunately for me, my combination of UM has also proven itself quite strong, and I have Goddess of protection as a pantheon to heal my troops and hold the line when needed

- the Langskip, in combination with the Runestone (+50 % production for ships), can be spammed quite a lot (in my game, I can produce one every three turns in my big cities) and it's "can move after attacking" bonus makes a group of these very good at attacking cities (since one can leave the spot for another to attack, even a city with one adjacent see tile can be attacked ad nauseam, and then everyone retreat before retaliation) => with the Great Lighthouse and Goddess of protection, I can cycle my waves of attacks continusly (a Langskip heals 35 hp per turn in my territory), and so all the Mongolian cities of a nearby archipelago have fallen, rewarding me with thousands of .

- the Celts have a really strong economy quite early in the game thanks to the Oppidum, and even if they began surrounded by enemies, they are a major power for the moment (and my precious ally, who gave me the Ivory necessary to crush the Greek Hoplites with War elephants in the early game).

- The Shoshones, the Ottomans and the Iroquois have fallen to their neighbours (America, Mongolia and Russia respectively) and are now vassals. As a consequence, i don't think I'll be able to provide information of them for this game.