Strange because I just did it
3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
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pineappledan
Deity
@Blue Ghost - Thanks for posting the 4UC spreadsheet on the first page. Could you also post the Spreadsheet for UCs by civilization
1. Should Kampung improve water resources? For now I can build it but it does not improve it at all.
2. Maybe instead of worker make Kampung fishing boat improvement (expended after usage)?
3. Did you consider differentiating texts for UIs like in Oppidum for Hacienda, MChurch and now for Kampung?
4. Kampung on Ocean is strange. Were those building built in deep sea? And second thing is that in game you can do this after astronomy. Maybe we should make them more powerful but restrict only to the coast?
2. Maybe instead of worker make Kampung fishing boat improvement (expended after usage)?
3. Did you consider differentiating texts for UIs like in Oppidum for Hacienda, MChurch and now for Kampung?
4. Kampung on Ocean is strange. Were those building built in deep sea? And second thing is that in game you can do this after astronomy. Maybe we should make them more powerful but restrict only to the coast?
FoxOfWar
Prince
Given how different extra copies of luxuries work in VP vs. base game, would it work if Latifundia worked just as a slightly-better-plantation/farm for resources, needed to not be next to each other, and spawned that extra copy after being worked a while(if space for it exists), as per the original idea. Yeah, you would get a lot of extra luxuries, but that's hardly gamebreaking (see also: amount of GA's Portugal gets in an average game) - and that's IF you have those plantation resources. Indonesia's UA/Candi also occasionally drops the resource outside city's area, but I don't see that being a problem either.
I mean, if we can work out that claiming of extra tiles it's cool, but I am getting the feeling we're reaching a bit far for something that does not need to be mind-blowingly spectacular. Being an improvement that the Legion can build (possibly faster with GG present, as suggested), that gives some nice yields, later an extra resource... it's already rather nice 'Pax Romana' feel to me.
One synergy I do want out of it: have it give decent production(1-2 more than plantation), to work with Rome's UA.
I mean, if we can work out that claiming of extra tiles it's cool, but I am getting the feeling we're reaching a bit far for something that does not need to be mind-blowingly spectacular. Being an improvement that the Legion can build (possibly faster with GG present, as suggested), that gives some nice yields, later an extra resource... it's already rather nice 'Pax Romana' feel to me.
One synergy I do want out of it: have it give decent production(1-2 more than plantation), to work with Rome's UA.
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That would be even better. Aquiring tile if possible and flat +1 resource after amount of turns. Problem with generating resource and improving it, deleting it is gone. I'm in. So it could be:
@Blue Ghost You can change info on the first page: Shoshone and Polynesia are made by me and Indonesia and Sweden will be soon incorporated into my part. Also I claimed to make Babylon and Byzantine after all that stuff. Also you can mark many civs as Done. And one suggestion: instead of To Do leave blank tile. It will be better to read.
Spoiler New Latifundium :
Food, +1
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FoxOfWar
Prince
@adan_eslavo Yup, that sounds like a workable idea to start playtesting and balancing from.
Kampung I feel should be strong, coastal only and not buildable on resources or adjacent to each other, requiring some planning on how to plant them. Not sure if workers or fishing boats, either work. Would still make Indonesian coastlines incredibly profitable.
In my opinion anyway, UI's should require some thinking on where and how to put them, as per these two cases here.
Kampung I feel should be strong, coastal only and not buildable on resources or adjacent to each other, requiring some planning on how to plant them. Not sure if workers or fishing boats, either work. Would still make Indonesian coastlines incredibly profitable.
In my opinion anyway, UI's should require some thinking on where and how to put them, as per these two cases here.
If we make Kampung OnResource improvement then fishing boats will not be needed anymore. That's why I proposed it to be fishing boat improvement.
I found another thing. If we improve luxury resource we get additional one (+1 hap). But if we improve wheat, we get nothing (additional flat one gives as nothing). So I suggest change ike this:
Spoiler Latest Latifundium :
pineappledan
Deity
The Kampung is not giving its food and culture on construction, or it is not connecting oil and luxuries? The aim was NOT to have it connect resources, and that you are supposed to build kampungs adjacent to sea resources that are being worked. That's why it gives an adjacency bonus to work boats.
As for why they shouldn't improve sea resources, I challenge you to watch how the Bajau live, and try to justify how this is comparable to an offshore oil platform.
That is something I specifically hoped to avoid. I don't want them to be built immediately like a fishing boat improvement, and I don't want players to have to sink hundreds of production into workboats. the goal was to make what is effectively a land-tile improvement, but on the ocean. This suggestion would undermine the uniqueness
Why is this even an issue? You're asking to do more work in order to do something that is either functionally identical to how it already works (if the work boats weren't expended), or would be hair-pullingly frustrating (if the workboats had to be burned every time).
I don't know about you guys, but I'm in the camp for not having to spend 40-100 production every time I want a tile improved.
I'm not really sure what you mean. are the texts for these UIs identical? I avoided changing the language or sentence structure to keep consistent.
The Sama-Bajau which the UI is based on live either in stilt houses or on boats in the open ocean. It doesn't make sense to have 2 different models for the kampung for deep or shallow water, but having them in deep ocean makes perfect cultural and historical sense. The original mod made it so you could only build Kampungs adjacent to sea resources. I removed that restriction because I felt it needed to be buffed for VP.
So my answer is thus: You could, but why? the change in gameplay would be minimal; how many deep ocean tiles do you normally get within workable distance from a city anyways?
I only went with the claiming tiles thing initially because other people wanted it, I was trying to make it work. Now I actually think it's a cool idea... so there you go.
The base Latifundia already gives 1-2 more production that the plantation. It is only with the adoption of the appropriate policies that the plantation can compete.
@FoxOfWar suggested 2 things:
- let Latifundium improve luxuries
- do not have Latifundium claim tiles
What's with "improves wheat"? and "+2 on wheat"?
- First off, is bananas chopped liver?
- Wheat doesn't connect any resources, and granary boosts the base wheat and not the farm you build on it, so why does it need 'improvement'? Is it for the pantheon bonus? If so, then improving wheat and getting a free spawn on wheat is mechanics abuse which I thought we were trying to avoid?
- Wheat and Banana are just another excuse to be able to build latifundia, I don't see a reason why they need to provide a luxury in every instance
- Why would you want the UI to both, improve the yields of the surrounding improvements AND reflexively improve the yields on the UI itself? That's double-dipping, The extra tile spawn would increase 2 yields at once, and this would also make the Hacienda less cool. I really, really don't like this idea
- Aside from all that, why is this becoming so needlessly complicated? This is looking more convoluted than the feitoria at this point
You sneaky guy. I've provided my reasons why this should not be the case. Moving it 1 tech before Rome gets all their other stuff as opposed to 1 tech after doesn't fix your gripe with how concentrated they are on the tech tree, but it also makes less historical and gameplay sense. All this does is sacrifice gameplay in order to put the tech on the other side of an arbitrary line in the sand on the spreadsheet.
My initial response was complete incredulity to this, but I am guessing this is a list of possible effects, and not that all of these should happen at once.
- generating a random luxury is essentially a great admiral bulb, only better because you get the yields too. You have no guarantee that the luxury that appears is even supposed to be in the game, or is a luxury that you don't already possess
- This is the winner. Latifundia can be built on wheat as an excuse to have more latifundia. it is not necessary to make every latifundia relate to a luxury
- and 4. - I don't like either of these choices because they don't make sense, and I fail to understand why wheat is getting this much attention. You can build them on wheat. yaaay. Why make entirely different mechanics for wheat as opposed to, say, tobacco?
I will reiterate. I see nothing wrong with having wheat (and bananas) as bonus resources that allow for more latifundia to be built. They 'give nothing'? They give wheat! There's no justification for why every latifundia needs to yield a luxury. Connecting wheat has no meaningful effect on the game unless you have the requisite pantheon, and unless I'm missing something, abusing pantheons isn't the goal here. You're suggesting we should create more loopholes for a human player to engage in bullsh*t which the AI won't understand.
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David de Vasconcelos
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2017
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- 41
Why not make the copy a "false plantation".
Improved yields (from improved plantation) are copied to the adjacent tile.
I believe that this would reduce the difficulty with the variables.
Not have more delay 10 turns
Improved yields (from improved plantation) are copied to the adjacent tile.
I believe that this would reduce the difficulty with the variables.
Not have more delay 10 turns
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pineappledan
Deity
I'm going to try to re-summarize where we’re at with Latifundia so you don't have to read all the stuff:
So the issues are Tech, what bonuses adjacent farms/plantations should give, how it affects borders, and how to avoid abuse
My 2 cents:
I will also make a page for Rome on the Spreadsheet
I'd be interested to hear, perhaps what @Blue Ghost , @doublex55, @De_Genius @BazaarJack, or @FieryCharizard7 think. Do you guys have any insight?
Spoiler :
So the issues are Tech, what bonuses adjacent farms/plantations should give, how it affects borders, and how to avoid abuse
My 2 cents:
- Calendar vs. Currency is a matter of whether the UI should come 1 tech before or 1 tech after the 3 other UCs that Rome gets. 1 tech after feels more interesting, since the latifundium is focused on maintaining empire than it is creating empire.
- I think bonus yields to adjacent farms and plantations avoids direct comparison to the hacienda, which gets +2
per adjacent luxury. This helps differentiate UIs better. I like the +1
to farms and +1
to plantations the best, personally - One of our core principles in creating this project was NOT to end up refocusing and re-orienting playstyles on civs. I believe doubling Rome's access to luxury goods would flip them towards a mercantile/peaceful civ. Furthermore, improving banana and wheat would open up avenues for abuse of specific pantheons. I don't think either of these effects are intentional.
- The main reason players remove improvements is to get at strategics which appear there. The latifundia is build on known resources, so they would never have to be removed for this reason. Therefore, the ability to remove latifundia would only be an issue for players who intended to abuse the game's mechanics.
- The ability to claim tiles which have spawned luxuries on them is a minor, but nice buff. It reflects Rome's UA (bonus land on conquest), and it differentiates the UI from Indonesia, which does not have this feature. I think if it is possible, that claiming the tile with a spawned resource is a nice quality-of-life feature and enhances the civ's flavor
I will also make a page for Rome on the Spreadsheet
I'd be interested to hear, perhaps what @Blue Ghost , @doublex55, @De_Genius @BazaarJack, or @FieryCharizard7 think. Do you guys have any insight?
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Blue Ghost
King
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2016
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I've updated the OP with the project progress. Please let me know if I've missed anything. Wow, it's coming along really well. Great work everyone!
From me, Brazil and China are code-complete, and I'm hoping to complete Egypt tomorrow. If I do, I'll post the next version of my portion.
My thoughts on the Latifundium:
If it can improve any farm or plantation resources, then I think it should essentially replace the plantation for Rome. In that case, I think it should be available on Calendar, same as the plantation, to avoid the awkwardness of having to go back over all your previous plantation resources to build Latifundia on them. Would the AI even know to do that?
If the Latifundium is replacing the plantation, then bonuses to adjacent plantations would be redundant. Bonuses to adjacent farms make sense though. I'd say +1 Food to farms.
Do improve resources (same as plantation), not removeable (to prevent exploits).
I see no reason for additional bonuses on wheat. That would just be unnecessary complexity.
From me, Brazil and China are code-complete, and I'm hoping to complete Egypt tomorrow. If I do, I'll post the next version of my portion.
My thoughts on the Latifundium:
If it can improve any farm or plantation resources, then I think it should essentially replace the plantation for Rome. In that case, I think it should be available on Calendar, same as the plantation, to avoid the awkwardness of having to go back over all your previous plantation resources to build Latifundia on them. Would the AI even know to do that?
If the Latifundium is replacing the plantation, then bonuses to adjacent plantations would be redundant. Bonuses to adjacent farms make sense though. I'd say +1 Food to farms.
Do improve resources (same as plantation), not removeable (to prevent exploits).
I see no reason for additional bonuses on wheat. That would just be unnecessary complexity.
As we know, Rome has always been an improvement heavy civilization (I think the tendancy for improving tiles as much as possible of the Roman IA is 8), which already makes it a juicy target for those who benefit from pillaging a lot (so in VP Denmark, Shoshones, Mongolia have direct bonus toward pillaging improvements) : because the Roman won't have any UC after the Classical era, they must roll over the possible threats before too much enemy UMs appears, and fabricate a way to defend themselves by vassalizing, fortifying and using diplomacy (which will be ackward because of all the conquering they have done before). If they can do that and exploit the full potential of the Latifundia, their territory will become Alibaba's cavern, full of resources and very rich (so they can become an agrarian faction), allowing more conquests later against weak foes. I don't really think increasing the reward for pillaging a Latifundia should be increased, simply because their will be enough gold obtained through regular conquest.
Exploits can be preented by what @FoxOfWar suggested: add 1 FLAT copy of resource (like fetoria) instead of spawning new one. Thats why I later suggested changing bonuses regarding to wheat (flat copy gives us nothing). There will be no reason to make it persistent.
Plantation are needed to fill the gaps between latifundias (adjacency restriction). Buff to them will be needed then.
I revert what I suggested before about tech. Lats should be at calendar to make AI not overwrite them after researching two tiers. It would only fill the gaps in between.
Im ok with smplififing wheat bonuses. I was just dragging things someone else suggested earlier because i like it.
So to summarize what I said, I dont wanna complicate things too much
Spoiler Latifundium after suggestions :
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FoxOfWar
Prince
Yup, I like that. While I'd enjoy the visual of spawning extra copies around it, it apparently creates plenty of headaches around. Also building something on a luxury that does not improve it feels just... wrong, somehow. Sides, there is subtle gaming here anyway, as extra copies means extra trade and easier monopolies regardless. Rome can still become (more) scary around Classical with a super-early plantation resource monopoly or two.
Say you have total four copies of Tobacco around your first and second city. Now you can have +2 faith from those tiles really easily, and can get almost India-early religion...
Say you have total four copies of Tobacco around your first and second city. Now you can have +2 faith from those tiles really easily, and can get almost India-early religion...
Yeah but you need to wait 15 turns. We can make that longer and bring back 30 turns value. Now as we won't spaw new resource (there's no fear that there will be no free tile) we can manage that value as we want.
FoxOfWar
Prince
Yeah, true. Still, it might be stronger than it initially seems is my point, just a bit more subtly.
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