3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[Jarula]

How about generates influence points while in city state territory...? Although I will say with the UW would be better the Jaeger bomb unit.

By the way that would make a funny civ the jello shots brigade

 

[hokath]

How about generates influence points while in city state territory...?

Well you could give them a Nau/Diplomat type promotion, but I'm not sure what would need to be done for the AI to realise it could now use what it thought were military units as diplomats.

@hokath, were you using the most up to date version? the one with all the recent changes for VP compatibility?

No this was still with manually moved Egypt part of the timeline. The more I play, the more I see all civs being much more competent in war, especially ones they start. Some of my experience might just be bug fixes to tactical AI coming through strong. On my Latifundium balance concerns though, I was thinking something more like the Kuna. Remove the 2gold and put it at Currency or some other classical tech, just to delay the power spike a little bit. Removing it from Wheat also has a gameplay objection: that it feels good to get wheat in a farm-triangle or high order farm-polygon but if you latifundium it and then a fig spawns adjacent, you farm-geometric plans are scuppered and that doesn't feel great.

 

[adan_eslavo]

• I can confirm that Picish Warriors on Kill ability scales with game speed (0,66/1/1,5/3) so we need to add it to all unit abilities I suppose.
• I will move gold to currency, but will leave wheat for now. We will see how it works after this small change.

 

[Ziad]

• I can confirm that Picish Warriors on Kill ability scales with game speed

The lack of faith was disturbing

 

[adan_eslavo]

What about scaling additional experience like in Armada or Black Tug?

 

[Ziad]

Actually in base VP, experience gains from promotions do not scale. I believe the justification is that you have more opportunities to do them so they don't have to scale.

I mean it makes sense. If XP requirements scaled then modifying XP gains would put you back at square 1

 

[adan_eslavo]

I'm not so patient. Can someone check which turn is 13th B'ak'tun on Epic and Marathon? I need to add those 2 values to the tables I created.

• for Epic 12th B'ak'tun is on turn 344
• for Marathon 12th B'ak'tun is on turn 705

 

[Hinin]

If I've read things correctly, 3UC/4UC will introduce getting yields for Attila each turn he's razing a city? If so, that would be amazing!

I'll sum up the UC/attributes we hope to make the Huns have :
- the Horse Archer will have a new attribut allowing it to attack a random adjacent enemy when using its last action point to move : this bonus allows it to hunt fleeing enemy cavalry much more easily, and to be much more efficient in rough terrain (where attacking after moving can be difficult) ; it is also a reference to how the Huns used to fire arrows on their enemy while charging at them (and retreat just before reaching the enemy lines)
- the Tarkhan, because it is a very early unit (same tech tier as the Spearman), cannot benefit from increased CP (it would be unbalanced), so we decided to make it a support unit : a bit less expensive than the Horseman, it can act as a guardian for Hunnic settlers with its "Migration" ability, can participate in combat while benefiting from the Hunnic UA (so more flanking damage and chance to capture units) and grants gold and culture when being garrisoned in a city being razed ; all in all, it will be of use in many situations and, I hope, enjoyable to use
- the Alti Cour Council (Council of the Six Horns) allows the Huns to gain a lot of production in the early Medieval era (plus a lot of science, since the Medieval era is full of powerful building begging to be built), and give them additionnal yield whenever they force other civs to give them tributes (science and gold when from CStates ; GAge when from major civilizations)
=> Question : Should the GAge be only a minor one, since I don't think demands to allies (which are much more easy to obtain) will be considered as different as demands to afraid civilizations by the game ?

Working on Germany now, and discovered that Druhtiz Oath cannot be done with current Lua technology. City-state gifts can't establish what specific unit was gifted, only the type of unit. We could find a replacement for Druhtiz Oath, but I think the Slaganz would be fine without it.

One solution could be to give a new effect to the German UA : "Units gifted to CStates grant 5 additionnal influence points until Chivalry is researched" (it wouldn't be the first time a UA is modified in this mod) :

• Chivalry being the tech allowing the construction of the Teutonic Order, it shows the shift in gameplay of Germany during the Medieval era
• The influence per unit given is reduced when compared to what the "Druthiz Oath" promotion was supposed to offer, but all German units can now be given this way
• For the effect itself, maybe using a dummy building in the capital which would become obsolete at Chivalry could make this work
• For the Slaganz, why not simply increase the probability of capturing barbarians from 50 to 75 % ? It would make the unit more reliable (at the same level as the Huns when they capture a barbarian encampment).

What do you think ?

Removing it from Wheat also has a gameplay objection: that it feels good to get wheat in a farm-triangle or high order farm-polygon but if you latifundium it and then a fig spawns adjacent, you farm-geometric plans are scuppered and that doesn't feel great.

One effect you might not have taken into account is that the Latifundia gives adjacency bonus to farms (+1 production) and plantations (+1 culture), so having one Latifundia in your "farm triangle" isn't that distruptive in the end (it just shifts your economy a bit).

I've played with Poland a bit. Some things to say :

Spoiler Poland :

Poland (aka the civ begging you to take Fealty, because one of its UBs would be built faster, and Polish pastures would be even more powerful) is a civilization with a very powerful UA, and a very strong power-spike in the Medieval era (3 of the 5 tier 1 medieval techs give Poland a UC). However, it is quite reliant on Horse (both UMs are mounted units with Horse requirement), and has no military/economical bonus in the Ancient/Classical era (so it is at its weakest during this period, and a player should try to obtain Medieval era techs as soon as possible).
For the Polish UCs :
- Barbican (replaces Armory) : This building suffers from two problems :

• The "Barbican" (+33 % RCS to unit garrisoned in the city) bonus it gives seems to affect all Polish cities which have possessed Walls (ex. : during the Classical era, it affected my archers in my cities with Walls, but not in cities without them ; after conquering London, which had Walls but lost them, archers garrisoned in the city were also affected) : it is a dummy building construction problem ?
  
• The CP bonus to the city is too high : all the UBs giving bonus CP to cities give 5 CP at a maximum (the Waag being an exception with a maximum of 10 bonus CP, since the bonus can vary a lot), so I think the Barbican should also only give only 5 CP (the "Barbican" bonus to garrisoned ranged units is also a defense bonus, so it should be enough I think).

- Pancerny (replaces Heavy Skirmisher) : I really like this unit : It is far more efficient in rough terrains (normally terrains where this kind of unit struggles a bit) and in regions with many rivers (swamps + forests + the unit suffers not from river malus when attacking, since it is a ranged unit) without being too resistant either (in open terrain, a Pikeman or a Knight can easily vanquish the unit) ; it can also serve as an efficient shield against ranged attacks ; the only confusion the "Grunwald" promotion may provoke is that players could wrongly assume the promotion also gives bonus defense in jungle, which it doesn't (I suggest maybe adding this effect to the promotion, even if it is historically inaccurate).

Also, on a sidenote, I've encountered another bug (beside the Barbican one) in my playthrough : Poland's UA is supposed to give a free policy at the beginning of each new era, but I didn't get one during the Medieval era... It didn't cause too much problem being I was already ahead after bullying Persia (poor Persia, between me and Denmark) and England (everybody hates having England as a neighbor in Civ 5) relentlessly, but it bothered me a bit.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I've played with Poland a bit. Some things to say :

Spoiler Poland :

Poland (aka the civ begging you to take Fealty, because one of its UBs would be built faster, and Polish pastures would be even more powerful) is a civilization with a very powerful UA, and a very strong power-spike in the Medieval era (3 of the 5 tier 1 medieval techs give Poland a UC). However, it is quite reliant on Horse (both UMs are mounted units with Horse requirement), and has no military/economical bonus in the Ancient/Classical era (so it is at its weakest during this period, and a player should try to obtain Medieval era techs as soon as possible).
For the Polish UCs :
- Barbican (replaces Armory) : This building suffers from two problems :

• The "Barbican" (+33 % RCS to unit garrisoned in the city) bonus it gives seems to affect all Polish cities which have possessed Walls (ex. : during the Classical era, it affected my archers in my cities with Walls, but no in cities without them ; after conquering London, which had Walls but lost them, archers garrisoned in the city were also affected) : it is a dummy building construction problem ?
  
• The CP bonus to the city is too high : all the UBs giving bonus CP to cities give 5 CP at a maximum (the Waag being an exception with a maximum of 10 bonus CP, since the bonus can vary a lot), so I think the Barbican should also only give only 5 CP (the "Barbican" bonus to garrisoned ranged units is also a defense bonus, so it should be enough I think).

- Pancerny (replaces Heavy Skirmisher) : I really like this unit :It is far more efficient in rough terrains (normally terrains where this kind of unit struggles a bit) and in regions with many rivers (swamps + forests + the unit suffers not from river malus when attacking, since it is a ranged unit) without being too resistant either (in open terrain, a Pikeman or a Knight can easily vanquish the unit) ; it can also serve as an efficient shield against ranged attacks ; the only confusion the "Grunwald" promotion provokes is that it players may wrongly assume the promotion also gives bonus defense in jungle, which it doesn't (I suggest maybe adding this effect to the promotion, even if it is historically inaccurate).

Also, on a sidenote, I've encountered another bug (beside the Barbican one) in my playthrough : Poland's UA is supposed to give a free policy at the beginning of each new era, but I didn't get one during the Medieval era... It didn't cause too much problem being I was already ahead after bullying Persia (poor Persia, between me and Denmark) and England (everybody hates having England as a neighbor in Civ 5) relentlessly, but it bothered me a bit.

• It was bug on Barbican promotion I will fix (I did not give it a check for Barbican building in the city where unit is garrisoning),
• I will reduce CP from 15 to 5 like it was in the beginning
• the UA problem is not my fault. I didn't change that. You should play bare VP and check if it happens there. If yes: say about it to Gazebo. If not: test again please with my modpack to be sure.
  • If you are about writing to Gazebo you can mention him few other bugs I found I temporairly repaired in my part (!Fix folder). In addition there are a bunch of values to check (here).

 

[Ziad]

@Hinin Poland's UA gives you a policy every other era starting at Classical. Not every era.

This means Classical -> Renaissance -> etc... skipping Medieval.

What Gazebo did was shift the power to the Ideologies, where Poland gets 2 free tenets as a bonus.

 

[Hinin]

Poland's UA gives you a policy every other era though, not every era. It says so on their description!

This means Classical -> Renaissance -> etc... skipping Medieval.

So, this means one free policy in Classical -> Renaissance -> Modern -> Information (+2 ideological policies when choosing an ideology for the first time) ? This is a misunderstanding from me in that case (... my English is worse than I thought)...

If you will be about writing to Gazebo you can mention him few other bugs I found I temporairly repaired in my part (!Fix folder). In addition there are a bunch of values to check (here).

I think you should do it yourself, since you know exactly what these bugs are and how you corrected them. As you know, as long as you stay respectful, Gazebo is a busy but nice fellow.

 

[Ziad]

So, this means one free policy in Classical -> Renaissance -> Modern -> Information (+2 ideological policies when choosing an ideology for the first time) ? This is a misunderstanding from me in that case (... my English is worse than I thought)...

That's right. Your English is great btw.

 

[Ziad]

@Hinin That vid hahaa

Edit: RIP

 

[Hinin]

That's right. Your English is great btw.

Thanks !

Edit: RIP

Won't keep this kind of vid on a "serious" discussion : happy you liked it.

 

[Ziad]

@adan_eslavo

Actually the scout Pillage promotion does scale with gamespeed. How interesting. Maybe this was changed recently because it didn't before.

 

[adan_eslavo]

• Scout pllage? You probably mean Holkan's Science bonus on Goodie Huts? I added this earlier after @Hinin's suggestion.
• What about Barbican's yields? Especially after taking 10 CP from it?

 

[Ziad]

Er sorry I wasn't clear. In VP, Pathfinders (and their upgrade units) have a promotion that grants +5 XP on pillaging a tile. In my game just now, I was pleasantly surprised to see that it provided +15 XP (Marathon).

I think this was a recent change to accommodate the XP scaling. I hadn't noticed.

In this case, any and all static instant effects (whether instant yield output or experience gains) should be scaled with gamespeed. I don't see why this would be a problem as the point of the scaling is to keep it fair with the longer time required to do things.

Armory provides +60 XP to trained units on Marathon up from +20 XP on standard, so if Barbican provides 25 XP on standard then it should scale to +75 on Marathon.

 

[Blue Ghost]

One solution could be to give a new effect to the German UA : "Units gifted to CStates grant 5 additionnal influence points until Chivalry is researched" (it wouldn't be the first time a UA is modified in this mod) :

• Chivalry being the tech allowing the construction of the Teutonic Order, it shows the shift in gameplay of Germany during the Medieval era
• The influence per unit given is reduced when compared to what the "Druthiz Oath" promotion was supposed to offer, but all German units can now be given this way
• For the effect itself, maybe using a dummy building in the capital which would become obsolete at Chivalry could make this work
• For the Slaganz, why not simply increase the probability of capturing barbarians from 50 to 75 % ? It would make the unit more reliable (at the same level as the Huns when they capture a barbarian encampment).

I personally don’t agree with changing any UAs at all. I feel the scope of this mod should be restricted to adding new features, not changing existing ones. I don’t really see a need to change Germany’s UA like that.
I think the Slaganz is plenty strong as is, but a 75% chance would probably be more fun than a coin flip. I’ll make that change.

 

[Jarula]

First you guys reject beergarden then Jaeger bombs what's next removing wine from the game... JK.

Seriously the UW would be fun it a meglomaniacal Germany muhahaha way but seriously though SO SO SO much cooler with Jaegers. Slaganz sounds like trying to bring back old Germany without the UA...

 

[Ziad]

It would have been funny to have had a German unique dealing with beer.

Still the current set is fine.