(4-NS) Shoshone Changes

[NerfRDD]

Introduction.

Back in BNW the Shoshone were considered a decent civ with an ability that was pretty fun to use(compared to many other lackluster ones).However with the big changes Vox Populi brought to the game,the Shoshone were left untouched while other civs managed to reach new heights of power with their updated kits.With their current kit,the Shoshone are supposed to turtle up and build up their empire without a specific end goal regarding win conditions.Therefore The main goal of this proposal is to enhance the Shoshone kit and offer them more options to leverage their opening plays.

Current Shoshone Ability:

Founded Cities start with additional territory(8 tiles on Found,4 tiles on Conquest) and your Land Units receive a Combat bonus when fighting within their own territory.All Recon Units can choose rewards from Ancient Ruins.

Encampment.
Unique Improvement. Only the Shoshone may build it. Can only be built on Flat Terrain, and no two Encampments can be adjacent to one another.
+2 , +1 , and +1 .
+15% Defense to friendly Units stationed on them.
Enemy Units will take 5 Damage if they end their turn on or next to an Encampment.
+1 and +1 at Gunpowder, +1 and +1 at Rifling.
Unlocks at Military Theory.

Comanche Rider.
Unique Unit,replaces the Cavalry.
Special traits:
Has more combat Strength:41 and ranged combat Strength:35.
Special abilities:
Full Moon Striker:+1 Movement,gain 200 for pillaging tiles.
Withdraw Before Melee promotion.
No Movement Cost to Pillage.
Unlocks at Military Science.



Proposal.

Great Expanse (Shoshone UA)
Newly founded Cities gain additional territory (8 tiles on Found, 4 tiles on Conquest) and .When at peace,Civilian Units have +1 MP in owned territory.When at war,Military Units receive a combat bonus when fighting within their own territory.Recon units start with an extra Promotion and can choose rewards from Ancient Ruins.

Encampment.
Unique Improvement. Only the Shoshone may build it. Can only be built on Flat Terrain, and no two Encampments can be adjacent to one another.

+2 +1 .

+15% Defense to friendly Units stationed on them.
Enemy Units will take 5 Damage if they end their turn on or next to an Encampment.
Friendly units in adjacent tiles heal +5 HP per turn.

+1 for every adjacent pasture and +1 for every adjacent camp

+1 and +1 at Gunpowder, +2 at Rifling.

Unlocks at Military Theory.

Comanche Rider.
Unique Unit.
cost lowered from 800 to 750.
Full Moon Striker: +1 Movement,gain 300 for pillaging tiles.

Details.

The 1 extra population on new cities synergizes with the extra territory gained and allows them to quickly cultivate the newly acquired land to their own needs.Securing territory too quickly in the early game may lead to happiness issues so rapid expansion should be heavily considered before attempted.

The original bonus defense in own lands ability feels mediocre for the player and only serves to making ai shoshone a bit harder to conquer.The civ still has the bonus for units in friendly territory though in a different way.Giving extra mobility to military units is too risky as we have seen how powerful it can be in player hands(Old Mongolia ability,Inca,songhai),so by offering it to units like workers and settlers seems like a more reasonable idea.

One other thing that makes the Shoshone unique is their ability of being able to choose rewards from ruins and while it is pretty useful early on(provided you can get as many as you can) it fades out pretty fast.By offering recon units an extra promotion the Shoshone will be able to quickly scout new potential lands to settle and optimize their scouts for exploration,support or guerilla tactics in enemy territory.

The UU comes pretty late and is designed to harass and pillage enemy territory.Reducing it's cost and increasing the for pillaging will make it less underwhelming and more convenient to build and use.The new encampment is meant to be a key ui for the Shoshone,on one hand increasing the strength of surrounding units and enabling them to lay claim on enemy land close to their borders and on the other hand offering valuable yields by placing them optimally.

Thank you for reading and feel free to share your thoughts!

 

[azum4roll]

+15% to friendly units within two tiles(Doesn't stack).

But that just makes them Polynesia. Yieldwise this new encampment is usually weaker.

1 extra civilian movement is usually redundant when you pick Progress, when Shoshone's aim is to improve almost every tile (so move+build in the same turn is all they need). A worker speed bonus should be better for them.

Is there a table to give an extra promotion on build for a combat class?

Are current Comanche Riders even underwhelming?

 

[NerfRDD]

Hello!

Polynesia's UI can only be build on coast and since Polynesia has a coastal bias this leads to a more defensive approach regarding warfare.Flat land is readily more convenient as a build restriction and the idea is to encourage the Shoshone to expand militarily by having their encampments exert pressure on nearby lands.Yieldwise I feel like this is heavily dependant on the terrain,science and culture are pretty important yields early on and I didn't want to add 1 more production to it as it could prove too powerful.There is also the synergy with God of the open Sky and Goddess of the Hunt which help boost the yield value of the encampment and should make it stronger than it currently is yield wise.
After taking a closer look at Polynesia's Moai,it would seem more appropriate for the encampment bonus to extend to three tiles instead of two.Authority is now a good choice for the Shoshone.

The addition of increased work rate in owned lands was considered but combined with Progress worker policy could make workers a little too efficient for their cost.While Progress is indeed a good choice for the Shoshone(maybe the only choice currently)the ability to have faster Civilian units can be really convenient when going with a Tradition/Authority approach.

As for the Comanche Riders,they are not a terrible unit but they come really late and at a point where most civs with a good scientific pace are gonna reach combustion and landships.There is also the fact that the other cavalry UU replacements,the cossacks and the berber cavalry feel more impactful in the stage they are introduced(the former with it's damage potential and the latter with it's maneuvrability).The potential science the Comanche can generate doesn't feel competitive enough compared to these units so they should probably focus on the pillaging and economy harass.

Is there a table to give an extra promotion on build for a combat class?

I don't have the coding experience to answer this,would be great if someone of the developers could @Recursive

 

[samjooma]

An interesting change for Shoshone that I have thought about is that whenever you found a new city, ancient ruins would appear near it. I think this would be a more fun mechanic than just getting bigger borders, and it would also make the abiity to choose ancient ruin rewards useful even when naturally spawning ruins are disabled. I'm not sure if this is possible to code though.

 

[pineappledan]

Doesn’t look like an improvement to me.

This Doesn’t address the issues that people have with the civ. Like a part of its UA being dependent on ancient ruins, which is a popular thing to disable.

The changes to the encampment make it less unique and less predictable. There are already too many Adjacencies-based UIs, adding more will make the encampment less unique, not more. Moving the % tile defense to the encampment mainly has the effect of enemies being able to turn it off via pillaging. I like the omnipresent damage tick in combination with the % defense on the UA better. Both the adjacency bonus and the % defense combined indicate you’re trying to turn the encampment into a Moai. Just go play Polynesia.

I’m not convinced that the Comanche is weak, but this change is just a small numbers adjustment. The 200 was decided upon because it is slightly higher than what the Vikings will get at a comparable level. If there is playtested reports that it isn’t enough then fine, but I haven’t seen that discussion, other than this proposal to change it.

 

[NerfRDD]

Doesn’t look like an improvement to me.

This Doesn’t address the issues that people have with the civ. Like a part of its UA being dependent on ancient ruins, which is a popular thing to disable.

The changes to the encampment make it less unique and less predictable. There are already too many Adjacencies-based UIs, adding more will make the encampment less unique, not more. Moving the % tile defense to the encampment mainly has the effect of enemies being able to turn it off via pillaging. I like the omnipresent damage tick in combination with the % defense on the UA better. Both the adjacency bonus and the % defense combined indicate you’re trying to turn the encampment into a Moai. Just go play Polynesia.

I’m not convinced that the Comanche is weak, but this change is just a small numbers adjustment. The 200 was decided upon because it is slightly higher than what the Vikings will get at a comparable level. If there is playtested reports that it isn’t enough then fine, but I haven’t seen that discussion, other than this proposal to change it.

The main issue of the Shoshone as a civ is that they can't capitalize on their UA to achieve an end game goal.Being defensive is a unique prospect but it can't be the only thing a civ has going since it will just fall behind and be future target for stronger civs.While many players choose to disable ancient ruins,there are just as many who find them flavorful and exciting.Having a part of it's UA that relies on their existence is an unfortunate but still unique part of the Shoshone and the other parts of the UA should be stronger to compensate.

There seems to be some negativity regarding the encampment so I feel I should address the complaints.Since the change for the encampment is considered too copy-pastey of the Polynesian UI there will be a change to help it stay unique.I wouldn't consider 4-5 Adjancencie-based UIs as 'too many' since not all of them focus on bonus resources and particularly pastures and camps.In addition Polynesia's moai only get an Adjancencie bonus by stacking them near coasts while encampments can't be close to each other.

As for the UU the Comanche Rider,it has felt a little underwhelming in my games as Shoshone and has failed to make an impact in that stage of the game.Compared to the power spike offered by other civs UUs(like I mentioned on my reply to azum)the UU does indeed feel a little weaker.

 

[Stalker0]

We should use the porcelain tower for guidance. Give Shoshone an alternate ability that works if ruins are turned off (just as PY has with research agreements on)

 

[azum4roll]

We should use the porcelain tower for guidance. Give Shoshone an alternate ability that works if ruins are turned off (just as PY has with research agreements on)

Then we need something for England too (+ Siamese Wat) if espionage is turned off.

 

[Anarcomu]

Then we need something for England too (+ Siamese Wat) if espionage is turned off.

Well, first we should see if espionage is turned off as often in other's game to see if it is necessary. I've heard of people turning off ruins, but not so many for espionage.

 

[pineappledan]

Then we need something for England too (+ Siamese Wat) if espionage is turned off.

Unless my amphitheater/archive goes through, then just England

 

[Enginseer]

What if Encampments were able to improve resources improved by camps?

 

[BlessingsBeUponYou]

Take this with a grain of salt, but something I think encampments should do is let you work the tiles adjacent to it, out to the city limit. Their UA is all about gobbling up land, so why not get more from having lots of land? Normally a Civ can only work out to three tiles, with Tradition four. They'd be the only ones (AFAIK) who could work out to five if played right. I think it would fit an encampment as well - having people in the encampment to work nearby tiles the city would have just out of reach otherwise.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal failed due to lack of sponsorship.