Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Re: France. The Musketeer doesn't transfer (it's just a stat boost), but the Foreign Legion ability does.
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aziantuntija
Prince
Oh ok. I have played with France but ive must of stopped the game before upgrading my Foreign Legion to Mech.Inf to actually realize that detail.
Exactly, stat changes don't transfer but promotions do. Is the longbows +1 range a stat change or a promotion?
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If the UU's uniqueness comes from a promotion, it does stay with the upgraded units. England's +1 range promotion for the Longbowman does stay around on the Rifleman. You just don't notice because it does nothing for the Rifleman.
If the uniqueness is not from a promotion. If it is just hardcoded into the unit, it doesn't carry over. Any unit with a strength enhancement, such as the Musketeer, doesn't carry over, because it is hardcoded rather than a promotion.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
It's currently a promotion.
aziantuntija
Prince
Yes I do realize this, I just did not remember the Foreign Legion when I listed those civs.
Btw, werent we suppose to get something between crossbowman (longbowman) and gatling? Wasnt it called composite bowman (or something like that)? If promotions stay effective, then England would be getting +1 range for quite a bunch of units after longbowman.. Would that be a good idea? I really dont think it is..
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archer-> composite bowman -> crossbowman (Longbowman) -> Gatling Gun -> machine Gun
the Composite bowman goes between archer and crossbowman, not after.
chaotoroboto
Warlord
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From the video it looks like compound bow is in between archer and crossbow.
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One of the things that I get an inordinate joy out of is when my first wimpy Scout stumbles upon an Ancient Ruin full of bows and becomes an Archer. Imagine the fun that could be had if you could keep that unit (with its all-terrain promotion) alive, get the Longbowman +1 to range, and the defensive strength of the machine gun. I will call him Rambo.
aziantuntija
Prince
Still I think its a giant loophole and it should not exist. Infact I think that it has been that way for all this time for all those civs that have had kept their UU's unique ability after upgrade. The only difference is that in Englands case this loophole is actually gigantic.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
BTW, no one has mentioned China, which strikes me as just as significant.
Pax_Romanus
Chieftain
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If you don't want England to have upgraded longbowman, build a few knights and take 'em all out. 
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Yes, it might even be a bigger deal, because the Cho-ku-no (or whatever it is called) has a weakened strength to mitigate its double attack, but the GG and MG won't.
aziantuntija
Prince
If you don't want England to have upgraded longbowman, build a few knights and take 'em all out.
Thanks for the tip, but unfortunately I actually DO like to play as England
. I just dont want to have the possibility to have superunits.Oh god. Lets just hope that the developers do actually realize these problems.
The AI is allready struggling in combat, It does not help the situation if the player has possibility to have army of über units!
gunnergoz
Cat Herder
The problem with special unique units like the longbow is that the game is trying to translate a historical tactical superiority into an operational or even strategic one. It does not work except in a narrowly defined way, for a specific era.
English superiority with the longbow in the Middle Ages did not automatically equate to a military superiority in the industrial age. What did carry over was the focus upon a small, highly trained and well-drilled professional military force that could be used for intervention.
What we should be focusing upon carrying over is experience and abilities, but not necessarily the flavor of the older units. So the longbow's range advantage should and does go away because it was unique to that era. In later eras, the British had excellent rifles like the Enfield, but they were still not exceptionally better than the enemy's rifles: the British infantry was better trained in how to use them, however.
English superiority with the longbow in the Middle Ages did not automatically equate to a military superiority in the industrial age. What did carry over was the focus upon a small, highly trained and well-drilled professional military force that could be used for intervention.
What we should be focusing upon carrying over is experience and abilities, but not necessarily the flavor of the older units. So the longbow's range advantage should and does go away because it was unique to that era. In later eras, the British had excellent rifles like the Enfield, but they were still not exceptionally better than the enemy's rifles: the British infantry was better trained in how to use them, however.
SalemSage
Warlord
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Where are all these rumours of England's extra spy being taken away coming from? I haven't seen any sources that mention this. Does anyone have a link to where this has been stated?
As for the Longbow -> Machine Gun promotion line goes, don't other UUs carry over their abilities? Jaguars carry over their healing promotion through all upgrades. I say if England loses their UU's bonus upon upgrading to their next tier, then all UUs should, otherwise that's yet another reason not to play England.
As for the Longbow -> Machine Gun promotion line goes, don't other UUs carry over their abilities? Jaguars carry over their healing promotion through all upgrades. I say if England loses their UU's bonus upon upgrading to their next tier, then all UUs should, otherwise that's yet another reason not to play England.
nationstate
Chieftain
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SalemSage is right, if Longbowman can't keep their promotion, no unit should. The promotions for the Jaguar and Polynesian Maori Warrior last the whole game up through Mechanized Infantry. The Danish UU's are on the same upgrade path so Their Infantry get Amphibious AND faster Hill/Tundra Movement.
MadDjinn
Deity
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this is all much ado about nothing.
Longbows are only special because you start with Range, letting you get to Logistics and Indirect fire faster (by 1 level 4 promotion, specifically).
In vanilla, they sucked for upgrades, so no one did it. Now they upgrade properly, but won't keep the 3 range, it'll just be 2 range. Oh noes... it's not like anyone else can't take that promotion... or build horse units or tanks...
... or fighters/bombers.
Longbows are only special because you start with Range, letting you get to Logistics and Indirect fire faster (by 1 level 4 promotion, specifically).
In vanilla, they sucked for upgrades, so no one did it. Now they upgrade properly, but won't keep the 3 range, it'll just be 2 range. Oh noes... it's not like anyone else can't take that promotion... or build horse units or tanks...
... or fighters/bombers.
Am I the only one who finds the idea of Mechanized Infantry with a war dance hilarious?
