[Complex] (6-28a) God of Craftsmen/Earth Mother Rework (based on @ma_kuh's idea)

[adan_eslavo]

It's a counterproposal to (6-31). Because the main thread got a bit dirty I cleaned it up and made a new suggestion in cooperation with @ma_kuh:

	Current	Proposal (me and ma_kuh)	Reasoning	Stalker0	azum4roll
God of Craftsmen	+1 Faith and Production from Quarries and Stone Works. +1 Culture, +1 Science, and +2 Faith from the Palace.	+1 Production and Faith from Mines on resources. +1 Production, Science and Faith, from Quarries. Stone Works grant +10% Production towards buildings.	Removed the Palace yields in favor of yields from Mines. Slight emphasis on Science over Culture on Quarries for variety, and to distinguish it more from the new proposed Earth Mother. Ties together the "builder" pantheon by combining two somewhat uncommon improvements (Mines and Quarries). Includes a powerful scaling component, but only accessible if settling near Quarry resources. Makes settling more interesting.	+1 Faith and Production from Quarries. +2 Faith and Production from Stone Works. +1 Culture, +1 Science, and +2 Faith from the Palace.	+1 Faith and Production from Quarries. +1 Faith and Culture from Stone Works. +1 Culture, +1 Science, and +2 Faith from the Palace.
Earth Mother	+1 Faith and Production from Monuments. +1 Faith and Culture from Mines on resources.	+1 Food and Faith from Monuments. +1 Food from every Bonus Resource. +1 Culture and Faith for every 2 Hills worked.	Reworked to be a bit of a fixer for a Hill starts with low non-production yields. Becomes more of a cross-over pantheon that lets you work more Hills by providing Food. Maintains an emphasis on Culture to distinguish itself from other options, especially from new God of Craftsmen. Bonus Resources are boosted with . This fits thematically and gives sort of niche.

Complex Proposal: DLL + Database Changes

 

[adan_eslavo]

Amendment: added latest ideas from @ma_kuh.

 

[rkkn]

This looks cool! I like. Though I wonder if earth mother is too powerful.

 

[ma_kuh]

What part do you think is too much? I went back and forth on +2 or +1 food for the monument, I'm trying to be very aware of yield creep while still trying to make these competitive with "the default" options like Expanse, Ancestor Worship, etc.

 

[rkkn]

I was mostly looking at the faith. There are three sources of faith there, and all of them come online about as immediately as possible. I'm mentally comparing it to current Stars and Sky. Seems like it works out to be similar but with an extra +1 faith on monuments. Though thinking more, resources on hills is probably less common than resources in tundra (if it's given you are already in tundra), so the culture is probably less. Maybe it isn't too strong? I'm not sure.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I think we can cut Faith from Monuments. Solo Food should do the thing.
Amended.

 

[ma_kuh]

I like keeping a guaranteed source of faith on the building, so I'd look to pull it from the "Hills with resources" clause I think. But that's going to be a much more significant reduction.

I suppose it helps differentiate All Creation's monument (which gets faith), if it's pulled from the monument.

 

[dostillevi]

So I started out really liking the new God of Craftsmen, but as I was tying to sing it's praises I found I liked it less than I thought.

What I like:
-combining mines and quarries into a single pantheon. Mainly because the old benefit to quarries and stone works felt too weak and situational. This gives the pantheon more breathing room and allows for the possibility of founding without rushing construction.
-Spreading faith out to mines means you can still get reasonable faith without rushing to construction for quarries, and the extra production can help turn out earlier councils to help with science.
-Seems well suited to a warmonger as well as a builder, perhaps even more-so. Authority God of Craftsmen would be able to build more buildings for happiness faster while producing units faster in small cities working mines and quarries, get culture from unit kills, and still have enough faith to found from mines. I like this emphasis for a pantheon, but I'm not sure thematically it fits with what I think of as a "Craftsmen" archetype.

What I dislike:
-moving science to quarries makes this pantheon very situational - despite giving benefits to mines, the pantheon isn't really viable for tradition/progress unless a quarry resource is within the radius of the starting city (nor is the current version, for what it's worth).
-The need to research a second tier tech and then build a quarry before getting the science bonus makes it much less potent - this is likely to only add 2-3 science per turn for most civs, and adds it at a time when that is not nearly as important as a single science would be if it was just applied to the palace. I would rethink this part to make it more impactful or else remove it and add something else.
-Pushes the tech path towards construction, which conflicts with a lot of early tradition WW goals.

Earth Mother:
Inca with Earth Mother would be extremely strong, and Inca is already very strong if it gets the mountainous start it needs.

 

[dostillevi]

	Proposed
God of Craftsman (Current)	+1 Faith and Production from Quarries and Stone Works. +1 Culture, +1 Science, and +2 Faith from the Palace.
God of Craftsman (Proposed)	+1 : Production and Faith from Mines on resources. +1 Production, Science and Faith from Quarries. Stone Works grant +10% Production towards buildings.
God of War (Current)	Gain Faith from killing military units equal to 175% of its Strength. +2 Faith and +2 Production form Barracks.
God of War (Proposed)	Gain Faith from killing military units equal to 225% of its Strength. +10% Production towards military Units. +2 Faith from Palace.

For an Authority civ, I think I'd get more hammers from God of Craftsman than I would from the +10% military production boost in the ancient and classical eras, especially for ancillary cities, and on top of that I'd get a boost to buildings which would help offset happiness concerns, among other things. It's hard for me to say one way or the other on faith gain - God of War as proposed probably wins out as long as you're warring, but God of Craftsmen is more reliable and allows for wide expansion without the requirement of warring, even if I plan to build up a large army.

 

[rkkn]

-Pushes the tech path towards construction, which conflicts with a lot of early tradition WW goals.

I actually kind of *like* this. Or rather I think the bonuses look good enough to make an otherwise less desirable tech path more viable

 

[azum4roll]

Mausoleum is a great wonder. People should push for it more.

I generally dislike pantheon abilities that scale well later in the game though. Especially on ones that are made to found decently easily.

Minor nitpick: it's not possible to have a pantheon that gives yields on improvement A on resources AND improvement B on or not on resources. Quarries are always on resources so this doesn't matter here, but it's still something to note in case we ever want to add resourceless quarries.

I also think Earth Mother should have the requirement of working featureless hills instead of just any hills. That'll also affect the hills with resources part, so that should read featureless hills with resources.

 

[ma_kuh]

We might want to split the Earth Mother proposal from the God of Craftsmen change. It's not strictly dependent, and even if the other Craftsmen proposals went through, I'd want Earth Mother's focus to change.

I think we can definitely tighten up the language so it's clear. Featureless hills seems like a fine rule to add, and it has an interesting synergy with chopping trees.

 

[rkkn]

I generally dislike pantheon abilities that scale well later in the game though. Especially on ones that are made to found decently easily.

like god of war?

at any rate, I think it's good to have some pantheons scale, and I think craftsmen is a good fit since it is a backloaded pantheon

 

[azum4roll]

like god of war?

Don't like that either, especially not the proposed version.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Minor nitpick: it's not possible to have a pantheon that gives yields on improvement A on resources AND improvement B on or not on resources.

So you can only boost one improvement at a time?

 

[adan_eslavo]

We might want to split the Earth Mother proposal from the God of Craftsmen change. It's not strictly dependent, and even if the other Craftsmen proposals went through, I'd want Earth Mother's focus to change.

I think we can definitely tighten up the language so it's clear. Featureless hills seems like a fine rule to add, and it has an interesting synergy with chopping trees.

I amended it with removing resources from Hills. So now every Hill would give 1 Culture. Faith went back to Monument.

 

[ma_kuh]

I think the change to Hills was just "... from featureless Hills with resources."

So like:

• +1 Faith and Production +2 Food from Monuments.
• +1 Faith and Food for every 2 featureless Hills worked.
• +1 Faith and Culture from Mines featureless Hills with resources.

At least, that was how I understood the suggested amendment.

Similarly, the quarries bit:

• +1 Faith and Production from Mines on resources.
• +1 Faith, Production, and Science, from Quarries on resources.
• Stone Works grant +10% Production towards buildings.

Can a Magi or someone familiar with the code explain which part(s) of the proposal are triggering the DLL requirement? If there's a possibility of simplifying it to just database changes, we should consider that.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Quarries and Quarries on resources are simply the same thing. You cannot put a Quarry on a tile if there's no resource.
Featureless Hills with resources look very complicated. I don't like it.

Maybe Earth Mother could have a unique interaction with all Bonus Resources? We could move Faith to Hills and make "+1 Culture and +1 Faith for each two Hills worked" (simple and easy). The Food could be used as follows: "every Bonus Resources gain +1 Food". We would avoid using 2x Hills bonus with slightly different conditions which I don't personally like. And I think this Food bonus can stand as it it only looks strong, but the main part is still Hills. We can even take out 1 Food from Monument then. So it would be like this:

• +1 Food and Faith from Monuments.
• +1 Food from every Bonus Resource.
• +1 Culture and Faith for every 2 Hills worked.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Amended with the thoughs posted above.

 

[axatin]

I think the change to Hills was just "... from featureless Hills with resources."

So like:

• +1 Faith and Production +2 Food from Monuments.
• +1 Faith and Food for every 2 featureless Hills worked.
• +1 Faith and Culture from Mines featureless Hills with resources.

At least, that was how I understood the suggested amendment.

Similarly, the quarries bit:

• +1 Faith and Production from Mines on resources.
• +1 Faith, Production, and Science, from Quarries on resources.
• Stone Works grant +10% Production towards buildings.

Can a Magi or someone familiar with the code explain which part(s) of the proposal are triggering the DLL requirement? If there's a possibility of simplifying it to just database changes, we should consider that.

Sorry for the late reply. The part that Stone Works increase production in a city requires a DLL change. Currently such a production modifier can be added to buildings (for example windmills), but not to a combination of beliefs and buildings. On the other hand, beliefs can add a flat amount of yields to a building, so a potential sponsor could maybe build up on that and on the existing code for production modifiers from buildings. It's not impossible to implement it, but probably rather complicated.

I'm not exactly sure about "+1 Culture and Faith for every 2 Hills worked", but I think this can be added without DLL changes.